Shermans v Panthers help

[Gris]

Well you can't make tanks face a certain direction in FCRS. Right? But maybe we should be having this discussion over in the matrix forums!

Meanwhile, is there anybody who can answer my original questions, I wonder?

Peter

Hi Peter, 

Sorry for the delayed response, I have been busy playing Panzer Battles. 

I played quite a bit of FCRS, there is a Matrix post on facing here.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp...g&#3741785

With that said, it really doesn't matter much to the player. The game doesn't give enough feedback to where you would even know it was a factor anymore than a lucky shot from a pistol.

"The only way I got to keep them Tigers busy is to LET THEM SHOOT HOLES IN ME!" 

- Oddball from the movie Kelly's Heroes

I do not know why the developers chose to leave out (or in) facing anymore than it is left out in Panzer Battles, but for an operational level game facing is irrelevant to a Commander (which I believe we agree on from the above post). It matters to me as a Tank Commander. I may generally call the target with a flank exposed, but really I would take out the target more critical to the success of my mission or a greater personal threat.  As the commander (or S-3 with a commanders intent) I put the plan together and tell them where to go and when they should get there. I'm sure there are a few tankers in the club who can elaborate on this and they are more qualified than me. 

In Panzer Battles, you do play a bit of tank commander because you choose the targets you will shoot during your turn. So here are a few things some of the more experience players have taught me. Usually the hard way. So I am not a veteran and maybe, if I get it wrong, one of the Veterans will jump in and tighten up my shot group. 

The scenario you describe of an equal Sherman vs Panthers one-two hexes apart is not really playing on any of the strength the Allies have, which is usually numbers. Lots of tanks.

Some rough numbers.

M4:  Hard 18/8 Def 13
Firefly:  Hard 24/12 Def 12

Panthers:  Hard 36/12 Def 25

So numbers wise it doesn't take much to figure out the Panther has the Firefly and M4 beat. The Panthers usually have better morale to add to the problem. A lot can affect these, but I generally do not play with a calculator in hand. For sake of argument without specific scenarios we can just take it at face value and say at a one hex range in the open on level ground you will place your money on the Panthers. Just realize the math isn't always that simple. It is a start.

In a recent game with Gregor, he said something to me that was really obvious, but I was missing completely. 

"90 Shermans should be able to take out 10 Stugs."

Well, my 90 Shermans didn't (I forget the exact numbers, but point made).  Here are some of the tips players on the ladder have passed on to me because of games like that one (in random order). 

1. Can you attack them with a less costly system, artillery, air (watch for AA), or infantry. At least to disrupt.

 * In the case of the Americans use an actual Anti armor tank like M10 for example, instead of an M4.

2. Don't be a hero, take cover if you can, behind a hedgerow hexside for example. Shoot him when he is in travel mode. Your advantage, his disadvantage.

3. Use Allied numbers to target a smaller number of Panthers. Either by straight numbers. 90 Shermans vs 10 Panthers or create the advantage by using smoke and/or terrain. He may have 20 Panthers, but only exposed yourself to 10. Even if you do not get a kill, you can add fatigue which reduces their bonuses over time.

4. Use the high ground. From the manual: The elevation modifier is per elevation change (up to 5). The modifier reduces fire effectiveness when the target is higher and increases the fire effectiveness when the target is lower.
That bonus goes both ways.

5. Disrupting the Panthers reduces their morale (which is usually an A or B, + Quality Modifiers) and halves the firepower. Indirect fire and towed Anti tank guns get a special X2 disruption. Don't forget fatigue, just wear them down.

6. You can assault disrupted Panthers and Tigers too. Works great in close terrain when the Panthers have no infantry. Look at Combined Arms penalty under Assault in the manual. I am still learning this lesson the hard way.

7. In your turn you shoot one unit at a time and all of his Panthers that can see that unit may shoot your Sherman. 10 Panthers vs 4 Shermans, not good. On his turn, his 4 Panthers getting shot at by 90 of yours in defense fire, real good.  Even if you only have a 10% chance for each unit, that may be 30 chances with a Sherman unit made up of 3 tanks each vs his one unit of 4 Panthers. Don't be a target (targets don't shoot back), make sure your opportunity fire is set correctly.

8. I almost forgot, do not over stack. You will lose about 45 of your 90 Shermans while your opponent takes care of your stacking problem from a higher elevation. Just sayin'

As far as range, how many hexes, it seems to me you have to balance firepower vs defense. To my knowledge the defense value does not change due to range (?) so moving back to the 3-4 hex range may help with survive-ability. His numbers are higher so any multiplication has a greater effect. 36/2 = 18 point loss for Panther, 18/2 = 9 point loss for Sherman. Just my thought, maybe someone with more experience with the math can chime in on this one. 

So Peter, that is my take on it after 30 + games or so. It isn't specific and doesn't cover everything. We may even find out whether I am on track or not. I will admit I am still losing Shermans like they are being mass produced by an American Arsenal for Democracy, but not as many as I used too, thanks to some help from the great players here at the Blitz. 

Hopefully this will generate some more tricks, tips, and discussion.

Have a great day.

Gris.

[phoenix]

Fantastic tips, thanks, Gris. Really appreciated. In particular I have been COMPLETELY neglecting number 4, and not paying enough attention to 7 and 8. With regards to 7 that means that the 'tactic' of coming out, firing (attracting his op fire in return), then moving back to cover might not be so useful, perhaps, because the op fire you get if he can attack you might be very useful? On the other hand, I'm not sure how op fire works but it 'seems' to me that the return fire (the op fire) is much less effective than the fire I actually command during my turn?

I am at the moment losing tanks hand over fist. I'm playing Dennis in Epsom 1 and it's a bloodbath. Visibility has been so short (2 hexes) that the tanks haven't been able to stand off when using them as support for trench and bunker assaults. Costly. And that's without him even committing his Panthers....

As far as tanks assaulting, I'd like more info. Do you mean you can assault tanks with tanks in close terrain? Or did you mean with infantry? Have you tried assaulting Panthers with Shermans? I wonder how the results differ from standing back and firing?

Many thanks, again.

Peter

[kolc]

Maybe you already know this or it has been stated: but infantry can do real damage to tanks. Of course they have to be right next to them and generally at full strength. But I have had several occasions where I was able to do some significant damage to a Tiger platoon or Panther platoon with infantry to be followed by tank fire. Especially necessary with the Allies. Pretty effective tactic in my experience but I certainly don't consider myself a veteran/expert at this game.

[phoenix]

Thanks Kolc.

[O.Schmidt]

Interesting!

Thanks!

Greetings,
HaPe

[Gris]

Fantastic tips, thanks, Gris. Really appreciated. In particular I have been COMPLETELY neglecting number 4, and not paying enough attention to 7 and 8. With regards to 7 that means that the 'tactic' of coming out, firing (attracting his op fire in return), then moving back to cover might not be so useful, perhaps, because the op fire you get if he can attack you might be very useful? On the other hand, I'm not sure how op fire works but it 'seems' to me that the return fire (the op fire) is much less effective than the fire I actually command during my turn?

I am at the moment losing tanks hand over fist. I'm playing Dennis in Epsom 1 and it's a bloodbath. Visibility has been so short (2 hexes) that the tanks haven't been able to stand off when using them as support for trench and bunker assaults. Costly. And that's without him even committing his Panthers....

As far as tanks assaulting, I'd like more info. Do you mean you can assault tanks with tanks in close terrain? Or did you mean with infantry?  Have you tried assaulting Panthers with Shermans? I wonder how the results differ from standing back and firing?

Many thanks, again.

Peter

On 7 the shoot and scoot is a tactic, but I was not referring to it. Just defending the line in that tip. I do use it to fall back, I shoot twice and then move back, retrograde bound and overwatch with a number of units. Unit A fires twice, moves back, unit B fires twice moves back, etc etc. I generally do not try to attract defensive fire, because it is unlimited to prevent the soaking-off of shots. The design notes cover it. Soaking off shots (and ZOC) have been a problem or tactic depending on how you feel since wargaming started. It is a great feature in the game. 

To my knowledge the return fire is the same except for artillery. Look at indirect fire modifier and opportunity fire in the manual. Also siege guns cannot use opportunity fire. One maxim in wargaming is -  

"My opponent's fire always appears more effective than mine" 

Kolc is right on with the infantry. I have used that myself to great effect. That is a good tip. Axis Infantry are very effective vs Allied armor, so watch out for them. Right click the unit portrait and look at some of the numbers. Just a high as armor units minus the range!

Dennis is a great player and is responsible for generating many of the tips above! Definitely keep playing him if you can and you will learn a lot. I have not played Epsom, but I did look at the map. A lot of the Vets seem to concentrate a large force on a narrow front and overwhelm that part of the line. Usually once the line breaks you start snowballing a lot of points. The terrain doesn't look very tank friendly. So maybe break down your tanks into small platoons and use them to support the infantry in front (which in turn protect the tanks). You going to lose a lot of men up front, but in the end when the line breaks you will save many. That map appears to favor the defender. Use your numbers to overwhelm him in one area if still possible. Take it with a grain of salt, I haven't played it. 

Something else that might help is many of the larger scenarios have smaller ones that break the battle into pieces. Play them first. Helps you grasp the bigger picture before jumping in. Also switch sides.  The easiest way to see the Axis weakness is to experience it first hand. Many of the scenarios take a few play throughs before you get near the historical results or even a win.

Take a look at Dog Soldier's excellent Bunker Busting guide. It not only works for bunkers, but attacking in general. Especially pay close attention to how he uses his force multipliers, such as recon and smoke. 

https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...?tid=66968

I've assaulted disrupted Tigers and Panthers with Shermans and won. Again I used the Allied numbers to overwhelm the Axis. I haven't used it often, most of the time you will eliminate them at range. It is a specific situation and another option in your toolbag. Ideally Infantry vs Armor in close terrain is best from my experience if you want to take the hex. Read the Assault section in the manual since the rules for infantry and armor calculate different. The terrain does have an effect. 

In the end, the Allies had a lot of respect or fear for the Panthers and Tigers for good reason. They were used to engage armor. The Sherman was Infantry support.The Sherman is in many ways a better tank than the Tiger or Panther. Where it fails is the low velocity gun and ammo (not all models). The Soviets used the better ammo to great effect. There is a lot of discussion on the internet about it, just consider the source if you research it.  It was upgraded and fought in many wars through the 1960's. I was in logistics in the US Army and they used the Sherman vs Panther comparison many times. Unfortunately the Deathtrap book has left the Sherman with a bad rap. Subject for another thread someday.

Hope this helps, Have a great day!

Gris

[kolc]

"Axis Infantry are very effective vs Allied armor, so watch out for them. Right click the unit portrait and look at some of the numbers. Just a high as armor units minus the range!".........Panzer Grenadiers!....I hate those guys!