Storm in the East - Round 4

[Floki FGM]

Hey Raz

Nort and I have begun hostilities. Map looks great and I'm having a great time with this one. Thanks of your effort and time to do this.

[weapon2010]

I think the main thing that is causing confusion with the LOS issues, and causing players to claim it must be a bug is the combination of the player having "all-knowing knowledge of the battlefield"(the godspot) and the relative spotting engine.Many players feel that if it can be spotted it should be spotted.Thats not how it works, the engine asks can unit x see unit z?Then,should unit x spot unit z?Question 1 is a simple yes or no answer, question 2 has many,many factors influencing when or if unit x should spot unit z.Im not defending BF or attacking the people who say there are many issues/bugs with the los system, I have experienced some strange los issues, but I would much rather have this "unpredictable los system" then CMX1 borg spotting.

[Panzer Lehr]

I think the main thing that is causing confusion with the LOS issues, and causing players to claim it must be a bug is the combination of the player having "all-knowing knowledge of the battlefield"(the godspot) and the relative spotting engine.Many players feel that if it can be spotted it should be spotted.Thats not how it works, the engine asks can unit x see unit z?Then,should unit x spot unit z?Question 1 is a simple yes or no answer, question 2 has many,many factors influencing when or if unit x should spot unit z.Im not defending BF or attacking the people who say there are many issues/bugs with the los system, I have experienced some strange los issues, but I would much rather have this "unpredictable los system" then CMX1 borg spotting.

[Tripps]

I think the main thing that is causing confusion with the LOS issues, and causing players to claim it must be a bug is the combination of the player having "all-knowing knowledge of the battlefield"(the godspot) and the relative spotting engine.Many players feel that if it can be spotted it should be spotted.Thats not how it works, the engine asks can unit x see unit z?Then,should unit x spot unit z?Question 1 is a simple yes or no answer, question 2 has many,many factors influencing when or if unit x should spot unit z.Im not defending BF or attacking the people who say there are many issues/bugs with the los system, I have experienced some strange los issues, but I would much rather have this "unpredictable los system" then CMX1 borg spotting.

So your saying the reason why these guys:

http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah...t5umob.mp4

Didnt see their kublewagon is because its by design, not a bug. OK, like i said, your happy with it, im not.

[Tripps]

OK this is a great introduction to what IMHO is the root of when people say "X should have spotted Y" and declare the game broken.  Yes, LOS on a hex board is a yes no question.  Can unit X see unit Y.  We all played those games with perfect spotting where LOS = is it spotted = LOF. 

So the vast majority of us have played those games where there was no real FOW (yes I know fake counters, etc.  but come on you have to admit it was not really FOW).  And the only question was can unit X see where unit Y is.  I am not aware of any game that added "but does X actually notice Y".  And that is the big difference here.  BFC is trying to model the chaos of the battle field.  They are trying to model that soldiers get are not perfect people, that they are looking one way when something important is happening in the other direction, that they get tunnel vision due to stress, that they duck when you wish they would not.  They are trying to model the morale factors that cause people to perform less well and how that interacts with their training level.

So in the hex game above LOS = is it spotted = LOF.  In CM LOS <> is it spotted <> LOF.  LOS is just the first step.  The game figures out what places a unit can actually see then they get some kind of chance to spot the enemy that is in the location they can see.  With all the soft factors that model the imperfect human, the concealment of where the enemy is, etc. etc.  All of which I have read Steve say on the BFC boards.  I may try to find some of his posts but honestly this has taken a while to craft and I need to get to work so who knows when I'll get a chance.

All of which means, that if you expect that everyone of your units that can see an enemy will notice the enemy you will be very sad and frustrated.  Again not trying to be mean or cruel I am just trying to get this idea across. Some of us have totally out of whack expectations of what soldiers can process on a battle field.

So, having said all that I do realize (and so does BFC BTW) that not everything is perfect and there can be bugs.  Those - how the hell does X not see Y when Y is big and sitting in the open are hard to take.  The thing is sometimes people in real life miss important things they "should" see and BFC is trying to model that.

Our choice is to roll with it or go back to a simpler time :)

Cat - I agree with this, and I get your point, really I do, I always have - its not that I dont understand what they are trying to do, more I think they havnt quite got it right yet

[meerkat]

Sorry, didnt see that round 4 has started

Haven't visited the site for some time and it didnt help that I hadn't checked the email attached to the BLITZ site

my bad

[KeBrAnTo]

Hi,

No news from Vodn Sigfodr.

My battle has not started yet. I wonder how to resolve this issue if my opponent does not show up soon.

[weapon2010]

I think the main thing that is causing confusion with the LOS issues, and causing players to claim it must be a bug is the combination of the player having "all-knowing knowledge of the battlefield"(the godspot) and the relative spotting engine.Many players feel that if it can be spotted it should be spotted.Thats not how it works, the engine asks can unit x see unit z?Then,should unit x spot unit z?Question 1 is a simple yes or no answer, question 2 has many,many factors influencing when or if unit x should spot unit z.Im not defending BF or attacking the people who say there are many issues/bugs with the los system, I have experienced some strange los issues, but I would much rather have this "unpredictable los system" then CMX1 borg spotting.

So your saying the reason why these guys:

http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah...t5umob.mp4

Didnt see their kublewagon is because its by design, not a bug. OK, like i said, your happy with it, im not.

I would need to load that file and watch it on my computer to give an honest opinion, there is no way to tell what is going on with that video

[weapon2010]

so please send me the file and I will give you my honest opinion.

[A Canadian Cat]

So your saying the reason why these guys:

http://vid1381.photobucket.com/albums/ah...t5umob.mp4

Didnt see their kublewagon is because its by design, not a bug. OK, like i said, your happy with it, im not.

If I recall correctly that was analyzed on a thread on the BFC forum to have been mostly caused by a pathing bug. This is the kind of thing that is left to fix. Some combination of the angled building's door location and the fence location caused the team to go a goofy way.

Cat - I agree with this, and I get your point, really I do, I always have - its not that I dont understand what they are trying to do, more I think they havnt quite got it right yet

Understood and I get that. Which just brings me back to my original point which was you might feel there are a series of fixes needed before you will be happy and you have decided to wait. BFC on the other hand is largely happy with how things are working and have no plans to make any such fixes. Ergo you might be waiting a long time - which is totally your prerogative of course. I hope you come back and play again one day.