The Storm in the East Tournament - Round 1

[raz_atoth]

Agreed, surrendering is the worst option in this case as the game will award you 0 points.
I'll send a mail to all the players tomorrow to let them know they might want to fight - in this case - until the proverbial last bullet.

[H]

Agreed, surrendering is the worst option in this case as the game will award you 0 points.
I'll send a mail to all the players tomorrow to let them know they might want to fight - in this case - until the proverbial last bullet.

Raz - the one guy getting zero points isn't the issue - someone getting ALL of the points is the problem

[Neutral Party]

Group 7 game completed.
Soviet Army Total Victory
Neutral Party 1100: Kandu 250

[Floki FGM]

In a total points tourney the losing player should not surrender and should play it out to the best of his abilities to wreak as much havoc and get as many points and possible. Especially when there are so many VP locations AND reinforcements are coming! I know that a "no surrender rule" was not explicitly stated but still. This only affects group 1 for now but we all should take this into account and play it out accordingly.

@Raz......there is a rule about someone dropping out where the winner gets some kind of average pointage. Perhaps that should be considered in this case? Allocate points it as if the player just quit and vanished......just to be fair to the other players in group 1

[raz_atoth]

Raz - the one guy getting zero points isn't the issue - someone getting ALL of the points is the problem

I understand what you mean, but i don't think there is much we can do. If your opponent's forces are spent and he surrenders how many points should you get? Floki suggested we might use the average points awarded for wins (the same as if someone drops out), but would this really be fair? I mean you might be getting all the points when the battle reaches it's normal end, which is a likely option if your opponent believes he has no other choice than to surrender, anyhow.

[H]

Raz - the one guy getting zero points isn't the issue - someone getting ALL of the points is the problem

I understand what you mean, but i don't think there is much we can do. If your opponent's forces are spent and he surrenders how many points should you get? Floki suggested we might use the average points awarded for wins (the same as if someone drops out), but would this really be fair? I mean you might be getting all the points when the battle reaches it's normal end, which is a likely option if your opponent believes he has no other choice than to surrender, anyhow.

Raz

A couple of questions/points to be made here - I don’t agree at all that if actual points were tallied then in a surrender situation the winner would possibly get all the points anyway. The AI fights back on behalf of each player, so unless the quitter surrendered as soon as the first shots were fired, his guys would’ve inflicted some enemy losses. Iluvmy88 says he only had one casualty, so the other guy must’ve quit right away – so 88 got credit for killing more than 50% of all the other guys forces AND the obj hexes, from the get go in this surrender example, correct?

So, on a technical note my question is, does the game system award ALL points to the winner in a surrender situation, regardless of the actual tally count – I can’t remember. If this is what happened here, because my other question is, where did the 1350 come from then – If I count correctly, there are 1400 points total available – so the quitter get 50 points for 1 enemy casualty, or did I miscount the total number of points available?

I do agree that it would be hard to determine how many points should go to the winner, but there is one way, as I mentioned before – one guy wants to surrender, the other guy accepts,…. both sides hit cease fire and the points that exist at that time are the points awarded to each player. Since you don’t know what the points will be in a cease fire situation, that may not necessarily be a good idea any for either player.

What happens if a fight goes down to the last 5 turns or so and one of the guys surrenders – does the other guy get all the points then? The cease fire resolution is the only thing in my mind that is fair.

As far as damage done, I don’t know what you mean in your direct email to me by “so far only 1 game has been surrendered so I guess not a lot of damage was done”. Actually the other guys in group 1 (at least the three others who didn’t surrender) who are fighting will have to overcome this points advantage in order to advance to the second round. My point is that this really makes the playing field unlevel for the three other guys not involved in this surrender scenario, and for anyone else in the tourney where the same thing happens in their group.

[iluvmy88]

Raz - the one guy getting zero points isn't the issue - someone getting ALL of the points is the problem

I understand what you mean, but i don't think there is much we can do. If your opponent's forces are spent and he surrenders how many points should you get? Floki suggested we might use the average points awarded for wins (the same as if someone drops out), but would this really be fair? I mean you might be getting all the points when the battle reaches it's normal end, which is a likely option if your opponent believes he has no other choice than to surrender, anyhow.

Raz

A couple of questions/points to be made here - I don’t agree at all that if actual points were tallied then in a surrender situation the winner would possibly get all the points anyway. The AI fights back on behalf of each player, so unless the quitter surrendered as soon as the first shots were fired, his guys would’ve inflicted some enemy losses. Iluvmy88 says he only had one casualty, so the other guy must’ve quit right away – so 88 got credit for killing more than 50% of all the other guys forces AND the obj hexes, from the get go in this surrender example, correct?

So, on a technical note my question is, does the game system award ALL points to the winner in a surrender situation, regardless of the actual tally count – I can’t remember. If this is what happened here, because my other question is, where did the 1350 come from then – If I count correctly, there are 1400 points total available – so the quitter get 50 points for 1 enemy casualty, or did I miscount the total number of points available?

I do agree that it would be hard to determine how many points should go to the winner, but there is one way, as I mentioned before – one guy wants to surrender, the other guy accepts,…. both sides hit cease fire and the points that exist at that time are the points awarded to each player. Since you don’t know what the points will be in a cease fire situation, that may not necessarily be a good idea any for either player.

What happens if a fight goes down to the last 5 turns or so and one of the guys surrenders – does the other guy get all the points then? The cease fire resolution is the only thing in my mind that is fair.

As far as damage done, I don’t know what you mean in your direct email to me by “so far only 1 game has been sunrrendered so I guess not a lot of damage was done”. Actually the other guys in group 1 (at least the three others who didn’t surrender) who are fighting will have to overcome this points advantage in order to advance to the second round. My point is that this really makes the playing field unlevel for the three other guys not involved in this surrender scenario, and for anyone else in the tourney where the same thing happens in their group.

i will post the end battle report if i can find it......the folder was deleted from dropbox, it was however not a initial surrender he had some 34 inf killed and 4 t-34's and 2 t-70s killed i dont remember casualties. he had no chance of winning even with reinforcements.

[iluvmy88]

so by your logic i should not get the points for a perfect victory, neutral party jusy posted his game 1100-200 obviously a fought game but he didnt win with any losses. if i won with so few losses why shouldnt i get the points for it. if this is going to be a cry baby fest just take me out i dont really care about the points i just like to play.also what fun is it for my opponent to try to fight when he has lost most of his forces even with reinforcments he would have had to attack to win because i either held or had overwhelming overwatch on all but one VP which he had a platoon at and i had no intention of ever taking (the lone bridge to the right).

[iluvmy88]

Here is a breakdown of how the battle went.

My initial plane was to ignore the lone bridge on the right and overwatch the ford and bridge in the center with 1st platoon and the recon vehicles. theyre job was never to assault the postion just to watch my flank while 2nd and 3rd platoon accompanied by all tanks and halftracks assaulter the village supported by mortars.

the assault on the left went perfect and the tanks caught his inf in the open and destroyed 2 t-70's. the remainder of his inf was either killed by mortars or severly pinned and whiped out by my 2nd platoon. by the end of the game i had control of everything but the fishery and the bridge on the right flank, the fishery waas doomed to fall within the next turn or two as i had a platoon within 50m and halftracks providing covering fire.

his assault came from my right flank in the form of 4 t-34's with mounted infantry. 1st platoon had been watching them most of the game and got sound contacts as they crossed the bridge and moved throught the woods. in reaction i moved first platoon minus the heavy machin guns and recon vehicles into a blocking positions. while 1st platoon was getting into position the first t-34 appeared behind me, spotted by my pzsk team and near immediatly fired upon. killing the tank and most of the mounts. i also had moved my HQ pz4 into a position to block the attack while the remainder of my tanks mopped up. a second t-34 came into veiw of my pz4 and he was killed with all mounts. the other t-34's attempted to retreat not realizing i had control of the hill (or not caring) they took fire from my repositioned pzsk team and my puma was unable to move fast enough to get a shot off. they had however allowed my remaining pz4's to get into a perfect overwatch before they could retreat across the bridge, thus killing the remaining t-34' as well as the inf that where mounted. the remaining troops where cleaned up by the reinforcments as well as 1st platoon assauling the route the attack came from. final reveiw of the map revealed he had 1 platoon on the right bridge and not much else. his reinforcments had arrived but 4 platoons and 5 tanks vs his 1 platoon and 2 tanks would have been futile especially since i had map control.

The battle map (this is not the actual game, the dropbox file was deleted)

http://imageshack.com/a/img538/5364/908pT9.png

[Floki FGM]

if this is going to be a cry baby fest just take me out

That's insulting to anyone who participated in this thread. Looks to me like you are the only one having a tantrum here.