How to kill uber Axis tanks?

[Huib Versloot]

Actually I find the Tiger easier to kill than I think it was in reality. Use TD's, Fireflies or sometimes full strength Sherman platoons.
I don't normally play with Armor Facing though.

[Fubar]

Actually I find the Tiger easier to kill than I think it was in reality. Use TD's, Fireflies or sometimes full strength Sherman platoons.
I don't normally play with Armor Facing though.

I have always used the Armour Facing rule because i thought it was more realistic, is that an incorrect assumption then?

@1925frank

The DG scenario your talking about is Crisis of Overconfidence and my Israelis just got torn apart by the Egyptian ATGM's.

[Huib Versloot]

Actually I find the Tiger easier to kill than I think it was in reality. Use TD's, Fireflies or sometimes full strength Sherman platoons.
I don't normally play with Armor Facing though.

I have always used the Armour Facing rule because i thought it was more realistic, is that an incorrect assumption then?

I only find it realistic in a game with individual vehicles, which CS is not. Others disagree with me though. The retreat bug makes it even worse for me. That alone is enough reason to avoid the rule for me as it causes excessive tank losses compared with history and games played without the rule.

Huib

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I have a different view of armor facing but, this is about taking out that Panther or Tiger.
I agree with Huib that Tigers are a bit more brittle than their reputation would make it seem.

In the example you gave I would take pot shots at range from Allied AT guns. Then I would move infantry forward to prepare for assault. I would then take two or three tank platoons together to fire in volley. If nothing done disrupts the Panther, I would then move all my armor away or to out of sight positions to try again.
If I had a couple of turns to prepare I would lay smoke to one side of the Panther and maneuver some armor closer.
The closer allied armor can get to the Panther the better your chance of hurting it.
Once disrupted it still has a great chance of hurting any allied tanks rushing in for the kill. Prepare for losses but, do your best to keep them to a minimum. Unless time is of the essence and the scenarios allows for the extra losses.

Ed

[Mike Abberton]

I have always used the Armour Facing rule because i thought it was more realistic, is that an incorrect assumption then?

To me, the realism of the armor facing rule depends a great deal on the individual situation of the target tank platoon. In a mid to long range duel on one primary axis, it is fairly realistic, since the targetted platoon would most likely be aligned toward the firer with only the frontal aspect towards the attacker.

As the range drops or where there are attackers on a wide front (or widely spaced separate positions), then the armor rule breaks down as Huib says, since the platoon's individual tanks would likely be facing in different directions or have their turrets turned, etc. This is particularly true with Panthers which have very thick frontal armor, but are relatively vulnerable from the sides. The side turret armor on a Panther is relatively thin (40 mm), although it is sloped.

I'd like an armor facing rule that severely restricted the front armor arc (something like 15% coverage at a range of 10 hexes or so), and an elimination of the rear arc (to fix the retreat bug). The non-frontal arc would have the same value as the default overall armor rating now. This gives the heavily frontal armored AFVs an advantage at longer ranges but makes it easier to manuever for a good shot at medium and short ranges.

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

I use the following tactics when engaging German AFVs (Panthers, Tigers) in covered terrain (woods, towns) on the Eastern Front.

Drop some smoke... move your infantry into assault positions... close the range (especially Soviet player "blessed" with lots of thin skinned T34s and even with the thicker skinned JSIIs). Try to keep your T34s and other Soviet AFVs behind an infantry screen... blast the "covered" German AFVs with multiple cannon fire... follow up with infantry assaults. Also, it is important with Soviet AFVs to "stick" and move. Take a shot and move back into cover if possible. Don't stay stationary and slug it out with the Germans. Then rinse and repeat.

I try to keep my Soviet armor assets in defense-friendly cover (woods, towns, BEHIND terrain), usually in company-size stacks, with only short "views" of the surrounding terrain. Don't try to engage German "uber" tanks in long range duels - even when you have several JSIIs. I learned that lesson in a recent battlefield encounter. :whis: It is not pretty!

[1925frank]

@1925frank

The DG scenario your talking about is Crisis of Overconfidence and my Israelis just got torn apart by the Egyptian ATGM's.

Fubar,

I found that the Israeli tanks simply could not duke it out with the Egyptian ATGMs. The ATGMs were simply leathal at great range, and the tanks' ability to take out soft targets at great range was not nearly comparable.

I think the ATGMs have a minimum range under which they can't shoot -- something like 4 hexes, but I was never able to get that close.

The best I could do was find Egyptian tanks, assault guns, and AT guns and elminate them, but I had to be really careful never to expose myself to any ATGMs.

Regarding Tigers, I think they're 14 defense without armor facing, and with armor facing, their frontal armor is 22, which is quite a difference.

[Fubar]

Thanks very much everyone for your gameplay tips, very much appreciated. At least now i know i'm not going nuts and that other more experienced players have troubles with these units as well.

I think when i start my next few games i may try and find opponents who will be happy to play with Armour Facing turned off. :chin:

:bow:

[SGT Rice]

Also don't forget about indirect artillery fire; it now has a 5% chance of killing ANY AFV. So if you're wondering what to do with a bunch of 2SP mortar sections, don't move them around ... let fly at your opponent's heavy armor!

At the very least this should discourage him from simply parking his behemoths in the most critical hexes and daring you to try closing the range with him. After losing 1 or 2 Panthers/Tigers to artillery fire an opponent is likely to get a little nervous about leaving them sitting still for too long.

[1925frank]

Fubar,

I don't think I was ever able to win "Crisis of Overconfidence," although I think I did manage some draws.

There's another DG scenario I don't think I could ever win -- something about a gauntlet. Running the gauntlet was suicide, and running around the gauntlet wasn't easy either.

Regarding artillery, I hadn't thought about that, but if you had some 60 mm motars, you could use them on tanks at great distance, and suddenly a marginal artillery unit could take on more importance.