If you test this way don't test at all

[Montana Mud]

[McIvan]

Perhaps what is needed are guidelines for testers, similar to what Huib outlined, maybe included with each H2H scenario download to heighten the chance that they will actually be read, as well as on the H2H section.

Btw Montana Mud, I don't think Huib just wants a certainl clique of reviewers at all. He just wants reviewers to focus on particular aspects and realise that as he designs historical scenarios, the forces and terrain often can't changed. Reviewers who don't appreciate that are, inadvertently, missing the point of what they are supposed to review. Which is why the reviewer guidelines might be helpful.

[Huib Versloot]

Montana,

It is not meant personal. In fact the reason I posted what I did after having gotten a lot of such test reports by various members who no doubt all had the best intentions.

For me it doesn't even really matter as I can fall back on many seasoned testers such as Nort, Don, Cam and many more, even without the H2H testing facility. However for new designers it is critical to get detailed feedback from H2H section testers.

If the H2H section continues to give feedback this way, it will become useless and designers will stop using it or worse; new designers will give up entirely.

It seems the H2H section will be updated these days. Let's hope that with some better questions in the test form and the possibility of reading other people's reports the thing will be moving in the right direction.

Huib

[Montana Mud]

[RedDevil]

Gentlemen, you make valid points here, but let's not get too inflamed with passion and belittle a fitting discussion with regrettable actions and unmanageable diplomacy.

H2H is a works in progress, just as any scenario design is. Giving an effort should be respected, irregardless of how it may be received.
If the effort does not qualify, constructive criticism is a much more effective tool for solution.

Developing & training participants is all part of the program. It must be approached with rewarding goals and have measurable accountability.

Focus this energy and I'm positive something good can grow from it.

[Stryker]

1. Campaign Series is a GAME not a simulation so by definition you cannot have a historically accurate scenario past the first move, so after that, what's the point? surely to make the "game" interesting to the player, no?
2. If you design a historically accurate scenario, why would you need it play tested, why would you care if it was balanced or interesting for the gamer? so why ask? Get a critique from someone else who knows the minutia of the battle or is willing to study it. Don't ask a gamer and don't release it for general play.
3. If you are designing a scenario to be interesting for the gamer, expect him to say when the Axis side needs Marders or some armour to make it playable... whether or not they were actually there is irrelevant as you can only ever design a representation of a battle or event anyway.. or don't design battles for general release where the accurate OOB is unplayable in a game... just design them for yourself... then there's no offence taken on any side.
4. If someone has taken the time to help you by playtesting, but is not doing the job you would like, then a private email thanking them for their time but stating that you do not require any more assistance is far more acceptable than a public rant on the message board which may put off others who may potentially have helped.

Thanks for listening :soap:

Paul

[Von Earlmann]

1. Campaign Series is a GAME not a simulation so by definition you cannot have a historically accurate scenario past the first move, so after that, what's the point? surely to make the "game" interesting to the player, no?

For me the playtest is only needed to see if I have simulated the problems faced by each side historically..IE weather,terrain etc.So, your right I should probably specify that when asking for input....I don't get offended by criticisms tho as long as I can see that I have achieved the desired effect.Lastly, by designing an historical scenario I am only trying to simulate the conditions etc....the whole point is to let the player try and do things differently to affect the outcome......sometimes designers get upset when people actually do try a different stategy...to bad.

2. If you design a historically accurate scenario, why would you need it play tested, why would you care if it was balanced or interesting for the gamer? so why ask? Get a critique from someone else who knows the minutia of the battle or is willing to study it. Don't ask a gamer and don't release it for general play.

I do that...and my newer scenarios are now only available to play by request.

3. If you are designing a scenario to be interesting for the gamer, expect him to say when the Axis side needs Marders or some armour to make it playable... whether or not they were actually there is irrelevant as you can only ever design a representation of a battle or event anyway.. or don't design battles for general release where the accurate OOB is unplayable in a game... just design them for yourself... then there's no offence taken on any side.

I design a scenario based on something I think is interesting.Again not offended if someone else is not interested.I don't design for gamers per se....but have found there are things you must do to work around or counteract the gaminess inherent in the system.

4. If someone has taken the time to help you by playtesting, but is not doing the job you would like, then a private email thanking them for their time but stating that you do not require any more assistance is far more acceptable than a public rant on the message board which may put off others who may potentially have helped.

I already do this......most of my so called playtests are by invitation only.....and the feedback is always accepted...I am particularly grateful for observations that pick up map flaws etc.

Thanks for listening :soap:

Paul

Your points were well made.......and I was amazed at Red Devils diplomacy also....a few years ago he would have just destroyed us on the field of battle.....(it's a joke)

von Earlmann

[Valor]

Gentlemen,

As I see I went on duty officer for a few days and I missed such a discussion!

But being serious, I see the Huib's point, as well as the points taken by other posters. Me think that we are touching pretty difficult question. Why do we play CS?

One say that he loves historical scenarios. The other say that he just love the game, with it's possibilities, mix of units etc. And I say that both are right. That is the strength of our beloved game.

Going back to H2H Productions. It's a volunteer based idea. Voulunteers from which some of them prefer to have scenarios as historically accurate as possible, the others just want to spend some their valuable free time on playing new scens and giving something to our community. And for sure, the strict-historical-designer will get little feedback from the game-playablity-fan playtester. And vice versa!

Huib, I really love to play your scenarios. "Dutch Verdun" and "The Grim Road to Hoogerheide" are among the best I ever played :bow: But I also like to play from time to time a "what if" scenario.

Huib, I understand that some (or even most) of the playest reports you've received doesn't meet your criteria of playtest report, but give those people some credit. They also gave their time, their energy, but maybe just are focused on different things... At the end it's up to you whether you'll include their suggestions or not!

Of course with current awerage rating system, one very negative report can ruin all chances to pass through the testing. I hope that it will be changed, as we already proposed in one of our previous discussions.

Once again, gentlemen. Please do not allow the passion to overcome the arguments.

We all love playing the same game!

Slawek

[Hawk Kriegsman]

It is this kind of posting as to why I won't playtest in the H2H setting.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Von Luck]

Ok put my hands up it was my test report sad i know but was only going by the menu.To fix this ive sent Huib a personal E-mail trying to clarify things and apoligise.No nasty remarks please im no genius or historian just like to try my best.