PzC Kharkov '43 Just Released

[Barbarrossa.]

I AM NOT HAPPY WITH Digital Downloads. I am none to good on Computers but have all these games because they work and seem without serious problems and I am interested in the history of it all. I have tried digitial downloading it can take much longer than it says and you lose the password or someother incompetence on my part. I for one would be willing to pay more for a hard copy Disc and find that the previous postal service worked well.
I have just been to the new site and think it all looks to complicated for me. I can only hope that an a additional hard cd dics system can be introduced even if it cost more. :hissy:

[Deturk]

(Not directed to anyone specific)

If anyone thinks that Mr. Tiller does not listen to the public then you are mistaken. However, I want to try to put this into perspective, because I am seeing some hateful and ill informed posts in another thread:

The sad fact of the matter is, game designers spend YEARS making these games, and there is very little money in it; I can personally attest that I spent over four long years making France '14. I certainly made it out of love, otherwise it would of never have seen the light of day, but compensation is nice, especially since it directly determines how much you can reinvest in future titles and improvements. I am sorry that everyone feels like someone is being cheated here, but the real truth of the matter is, the people that work long and hard on these games are the ones getting cheated (not by piracy alone mind you, but by publishing costs). It is unfortunate that there cannot be more understanding of that fact, but that is the way of things - people see what they want to see. Please do not put words into my mouth here that anyone is looking for sympathy, or that I am suggesting that understanding and patience should only flow one direction, this is naturally a symbiotic relationship but there are some things must be kept in perspective here.

Love it or hate it, this is the future of software distribution. Shipping out CDs is nice, I certainly liked having a CD myself, but the old way must eventually give way to the new in a niche market where very little money is being made. DD allows prices to stay low, yet profits to be higher so that money can be reinvested into the games themselves. There are several alternatives to DD, which is continue making physical copies and scratching out a minimal existence, or to simply stop developing altogether (I am not suggesting that will happen, I am speaking hypothetically). So, you have a situation where there is very little money, so DD is the method which alleviates the problems and it also provides the consumer the ability to have the game NOW, on demand, without waiting for it to arrive my mail. However, with DD comes the side effect that we are talking about here: you cannot just give your software away as a download without any protection, that would be akin to slitting your own wrists as a developer -- the people who spend *years* of their life making these "games" are, in good sense, not interested in that approach. :(

This is just something to keep this in perspective. The main change here is the shift to DD for obvious reasons. As someone said, DD was not invented yesterday, and it has become method of higher efficiency that a niche market requires to be successful. You can dispel those false assumptions that someone was sitting around with feet-on-desk, puffing-on-fat-cigar trying to figure out ways to force a DRM method on everyone. The DRM is a necessary side effect/evil of digital download. Who knows, maybe the DRM may change to allow multiple activations with one serial number, the whole thing was only announced today and we get the idea: there should be more than one activation allowed for those that might want to put the game on a laptop for traveling purposes. That is perfectly understandable. Lets be patient as, with everything new, some things might have to be ironed out (or not, who knows). Just remember to keep both sides of the issue in mind...

I agree with Volcano Man on this subject.

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[i]

I had a hard enough time begging my wife, and pretty much selling my soul to the devil, to be able purchase "older" HPS games at reasonable price of $29.99. There is no way my wife is ever going to go for the idea of buying games that sell for $39.99! Also with the way the economy is, $39.99 seems pretty steep.

I now its not a casual forum and such expressions shouldnt be used here, but i cant help saying LOL.

Whos wearing the pants in this marriege?

A new game costs 50 bucks.
This one is sold for 40.
Even I can afford it. And i live in Eastern Europe in a post communist state..

Whats 40 dollars for an american? Nothing i suppose.

I got a good :laughing: at this one also.

[Dog Soldier]

:soap:

Strange about the need to have the game installed in several PC's. If one needs portability, just install it on a laptop. Take the laptop to the office and play the game on your lunch hour. Mail the turn during lunch, if you finish it, mail it off right from the local restaurant you frequent on other lunch hours. I am sure they would let you if you are a "regular" customer. I have done this before.

Business trip? Well that one has to be a little more tricky, since many employer's IT departments take a dim view to mixing one's personal software with the corporate image on the company equipment. However, I do think that the remote desktop option works in this case. It might be wise to couple that strategy with a simple VPN program so you can use the hotel network without compromising the machine at home.

Not technical enough to pull it off on your own? Well there is a whole community here at the blitz. Really guys? Want some cheese with your whine? For all the creative talent I have seen over the years in blitz members overcoming tough situations on the digital battlefield, creating interesting and challenging mods, art work, etc. some of you are cowering the corner crying about a little limitation like the new delivery by JTS? I thought members here at the blitz relished a good challenge. Give back some small measure to those who have given us a whole hell of a lot more over the last ten years.

With the combined creativity and skills of this community, someone will do it with their home machine / road warrior machine and they will be able to have bragging rights (sticky thread) and 100 ladder points from me for posting a detailed thread here at the blitz HPS OPC forum on "How To...". Points will be awarded when the post is clear and concise enough that even I and Foul can make it work.
That means you have to write the "How To" at least as good as the many that Foul has done here to help the community with the transition to the new blitz, PBEM gaming etc. I will even bet Foul would be willing to test out the instructions before you post them here for all to see. Glenn probably would to.

I suppose some who have posted in this thread will think I am being harsh. Well, I find it a little ridiculous to complain to the car company that there was a snow storm last night and it is up to the car company to get me to work cause I just moved here and never drove their product on snowy roads.

Or I can just man up and learn how to make the best of it, cause it will be worth while to learn. The digital world is changing and in a great amount of flux right now. We can complain or we can innovate for ourselves while not waiting around for the "game company" to solve it by giving up a small measure of protection for their hard work.

Each can make their choice and be judged by your peers, right here, right now.

I look forward to seeing those posts in the coming weeks as many hidden, talented members of the blitz step forward to give back to the community they are a proud member of. Step forward and be recognized.

(Leaves the gauntlet on the floor where he threw it down.)

Dog Soldier

[Bison]

I don't think anyone who is upset that JTS is now distributing the game digitally. No one begrudges the developers trying to make more out of their games and clearly cutting out a publisher middleman and producing cds saves money.

The problem is the e-license. It is whether the developers like to see it that way or not a slap in the face of honest customers. Many have been loyal customers for a long time. Faithfully buying the games over the years. In return, Tiller and crew have supported the games unlike many other developers in the business. Now to turn on customers and say you only get one license or maybe if we feel like it two is absurd. Even when the games were produced on cd, you could do one of three things. All known and supported. 1. Play with CD in drive. 2. Wait for the no CD patch 3. Make a master disc to stand in for the originals. The notion that now your customers who you previously trusted enough to teach how to make master discs to save the originals cd from wear or who you gave no cd check patches too are somehow so untrustworthy that they must only be allow one computer at a time is laughable.

I don't have a problem with serial number verification. I don't have a problem with serial number verification every time I want to patch up the game. I do this with another wargame publisher that many here are familiar with too.

The problem is the limits that are placed on honest customers about how often and when they are allowed to install a game they paid for to support the developer and play. It's same customers who have willingly paid out $30 - $50 + s/h to play and support Tiller games over the years. I hear the cries of piracy, but honestly if someone were going to use a torrent to download the game illegally it doesn't matter what a developer does to "protect" themselves. The ones who catch the brunt of the DRM is not the pirates. It's your loyal customers. The pirates were never going to buy the game anyway. This scheme does not change that fact.

The fact is the new DRM pushes away customers would have bought your games. Most likely would have bought games they have on cd again too. But instead Tiller and crew have pushed a good many people away with this license scheme. It's frankly a sad and frustrating day for this fan of the games. I cannot support this new DRM method. It is an insult. I wish the best of luck to John Tiller and crew. I don't want your sympathy and understanding about my position. I want the respect that a loyal customer deserves and this DRM scheme is not respect.

[raizer]

well DRm is a pain for some but its the price we pay for these niche market games. I mean the margins are so small here. I only use one computer but my friends use more than one-something they will have to adjust to.

ABout 2 years ago I decided to drop the games off my desktop, hell I had to when I bought a MAC. So I went to ebay and bout a 150$ dell lap top with 2 gigs ram and windows XP pro. For the price of 4.5 games here, I essentially have a laptop devoted only to this game. I got a wireless card on it-and all I do is play the games and mail the files-no virus software, no vista, no nothing. Just XP, HPS and firefox for my yahoo account. Prolly the best 150 bucks I ever spent. One game one computer is here for this market and its the only way the designers can hope to make any cash pumping these out. Hell packaging and mailing a CD can eat into profits.

I havent even looked at the game yet or its requirements. I just saw the dust up here and was wondering what was up. I will check the game out. BTW any plans for a MAC version :whis:

[Dirk Gross]

No, DRM is not a price we have to pay for "niche" games. Matrix games uses an apparently successful model of digital download with a key allowing installs that aren't tied to a specific computer and installation/uninstall through a server. It's fine many of you don't care about what DRM is used. It's unacceptable for me. I have about 50 of JT's games on my shelf (that's $1750 @ $35 per), and I'm in 4 game clubs that play them since 1999. I hope VM is correct that the protection scheme could be modified. Use a system like Matrix has used for years, and I'll keep adding to my collection. Otherwise I'm done with new titles and I'll be content just to play the titles I already own.

The cost is another issue. It seems that download should cost less than production of CD's and packaging, storage, and shipping that would be reflected in the price. I guess the download price is less than the direct from HPS CD prices are, but it's more than the $30 I pay NWS. I'd be fine with $30 download since that also saves shipping, but I'm not real pleased with $40. Heck, even $35 wouldn't be bad since it's similar to the game +shipping. That's trivial to me compared the DRM. The DRM takes the new titles off my buy list unless it changes.

[Adam Parker]

Wow, long time for me since I've been here! Just caught wind of the new game and website from a kind post at Matrix and thought I'd post a few thoughts :)

1. Congratulations on this great step. It's also great to see the "old" names still going strong! Merry Christmas and season's greetings to everyone. May Kh43 be a good stocking stuffer

2. I'm a huge fan of digital download.

3. I see the DRM used at JTS as unobtrusive. However, I'm no expert and would have thought a serial number to unlock the code being enough rather than needing to activate it too. I'm sure that this is way Matrix and AGEOD have run.

4. What a great campaign to add to annals of our hobby.

Cheers all,
Adam.

[raizer]

one thing the forum traffic picked up...
now you get 2 puters per order-I think that is reasonable to say the least and I will be gladly getting a copy. Course finding time for it is another matter

[The SNAFU]

For me this is a simple matter.

1) I think the PzC is the best pc wargame series hands down.

2) The makers and supporter are top flight

3) Digital download has a seat at the table today and will be king of the future.

I would prefer to have a disc and a nice case when I add to my collection of PzC games but I understand the reasons for DD and can probably live with it. But,and it's a big but. I do not like the notion that a manufactur has any say whatever in how I enjoy their products providing I do so in a lawful and responsible manner. If I want the game on 10 pc's I should have that option having paid for the game. If I buy a TV nobody tells me what to watch on it or limits what I watch to that TV or another.

These games get heavily modified over time with awesome improvements by folks like Volcano Man, Jison and others. To delete, reinstall and add the mods I like everytime I want to play the game on another pc is a huge restriction (not to mention pain in the a$$) on my enjoyment of what is my property.

If I elect to continue to enjoy and support new PzC games I'll have to find a way to live with this. But I hope JT reconsiders these decisions and finds ways to return control of the games to their paying customers. I would gladly pay $10.00 more to have a CD.

[Dirk Gross]

I AM NOT HAPPY WITH Digital Downloads. I am none to good on Computers but have all these games because they work and seem without serious problems and I am interested in the history of it all. I have tried digitial downloading it can take much longer than it says and you lose the password or someother incompetence on my part. I for one would be willing to pay more for a hard copy Disc and find that the previous postal service worked well.
I have just been to the new site and think it all looks to complicated for me. I can only hope that an a additional hard cd dics system can be introduced even if it cost more. :hissy:

Barbarrossa,

You may have a point when it comes to download time. That depends on your internet connection speed and the servers they use. The disk and code issue is easily remedied. Using Matrixgames as an example, I download the game file, then burn the file onto a CD along with a text file of the code. I also write the code on the CD. Now you have everything you would have gotten had you ordered a physical disk through the mail. Actually, it's better because your code is on the disk instead of in a manual or disk sleeve where it can become separated from the game disk.

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I would prefer to have a disc and a nice case when I add to my collection of PzC games but I understand the reasons for DD and can probably live with it.

You can probably make your own CD case label by using the game logo on John's site and printing it youself. Who cares about the CD label...once I install it hardly sees the light of day again unless I have to reinstall. Maybe one of our talented graphics people will make CD and case labels for downloading. It's a new area of self expression.

But,and it's a big but. I do not like the notion that a manufactur has any say whatever in how I enjoy their products providing I do so in a lawful and responsible manner. If I want the game on 10 pc's I should have that option having paid for the game. If I buy a TV nobody tells me what to watch on it or limits what I watch to that TV or another.

I don't think any EULA permits installation of a game on 10 pcs. So while a protection scheme (or lack of it) may allow that, I don't think it's reasonable to demand that unrestricted installation be permissible. A person could easily buy a game and copy it ten times for his friends and no one can (or should) say that's their right having purchased one game. The two pc install goes a long way to my and a lot of others issue with a second install for a laptop. That matches with some business software that allows a desktop AND a laptop install.

Now, the registering and unregistering with a server can be an issue. But I think a lot of that comes from the company you're dealing with. I've done that with MS on Windows installs (both automatic and phone in) and it's been painless. Some game companies, particularly ones that uses server validation on a certain naval game, have shown how to alienate customers to the point where a lot of people wouldn't touch their game with a ten foot pole. For me, I trust JT will not do that based on over a decade of personal experience with his games, and the willingness he's shown to work with the gaming community to provide ongoing improvements to all games in a series where other designers would have dropped all support.

With the mod to the DRM, I'm going to give this one a chance.