10-06-2013, 08:43 AM
10-15-2013, 12:09 PM
One thought on a small tweak to 5.1, although I know this is unlikely to be updated soon.
The NATO surface to air batteries that release on June 30 only release before that if one of the batteries of a unit are spotted by the enemy. However, given the placement of some of them in deep woods, behind ridges, etc., it can happen that the enemy advance has surrounded them but they remain fixed. While not a perfect solution, I recommend making for each organization a "forward spotter" unit of 1 man and placing it somewhere where an advance would release its parent unit. You can give the spotter zero movement, etc. to make sure that is the only purpose it serves.
The NATO surface to air batteries that release on June 30 only release before that if one of the batteries of a unit are spotted by the enemy. However, given the placement of some of them in deep woods, behind ridges, etc., it can happen that the enemy advance has surrounded them but they remain fixed. While not a perfect solution, I recommend making for each organization a "forward spotter" unit of 1 man and placing it somewhere where an advance would release its parent unit. You can give the spotter zero movement, etc. to make sure that is the only purpose it serves.
10-15-2013, 03:00 PM
Man, if thats all you can come up with so far it must be pretty good.
10-15-2013, 03:12 PM
Only on around turn 7 or so as NATO, so too early to judge. However it is definitely a more mobile battle! I am unsure still about the trench values. Fifty was too high. But thirty makes it very tough to hold any line with infantry give all the artillery around, especially the killer MLRS. Not sure what is needed, maybe inch the terrain values back up or put trench back at the default forty.
10-16-2013, 12:20 AM
(10-15-2013, 03:12 PM)Elxaime Wrote: [ -> ]Only on around turn 7 or so as NATO, so too early to judge. However it is definitely a more mobile battle! I am unsure still about the trench values. Fifty was too high. But thirty makes it very tough to hold any line with infantry give all the artillery around, especially the killer MLRS. Not sure what is needed, maybe inch the terrain values back up or put trench back at the default forty.
If you can hold a trench line than its a less mobile battle.
10-16-2013, 11:17 AM
It's sort of a combination of artillery's power to vaporize infantry plus the ability to infiltrate the fluid ZOC. Unit density, for the most part, prevents unbroken defense lines (even where terrain permits it).
Too early to tell though. It is certainly tons of nail-biting fun, so that is a win. But right now, NATO is stretching its running legs!
Too early to tell though. It is certainly tons of nail-biting fun, so that is a win. But right now, NATO is stretching its running legs!
10-23-2013, 02:08 AM
On Turn 7 myself, Nato still holding firm in the places that matter. I have Trenches set to 25 and IP 15, any higher than that especially if they are built in non clear hexes and WP just won't knock out Nato armour and it becomes a one sided turkey shoot!
Keep your Nato AIFV infantry out of the line and only put them in when you've ID'd the main WP attack points, that keeps them out of harms way as far as WP Arty is concerned!
Keep your Nato AIFV infantry out of the line and only put them in when you've ID'd the main WP attack points, that keeps them out of harms way as far as WP Arty is concerned!
11-19-2013, 02:45 PM
Sirs
On my second run with 5.1.
1st Run I did as NATO, and it went well.
2nd Run as WP and its not so good atm. Feelings from my side on it:
- WP just don't have enough quality troops
- NATO can escape too easy
- WP Artillery feels weak
- Once a defense is dug in(even after lower values), its tough to destroy/disrupt NATO
- Any NATO left, recovers fast and become a major threat
- WP can grind and throw 4-5 divisions at a spot, and I found it hard to enable a breach. I just to much casualties to effectively cause a panick.
Any thoughts from other folks?
On my second run with 5.1.
1st Run I did as NATO, and it went well.
2nd Run as WP and its not so good atm. Feelings from my side on it:
- WP just don't have enough quality troops
- NATO can escape too easy
- WP Artillery feels weak
- Once a defense is dug in(even after lower values), its tough to destroy/disrupt NATO
- Any NATO left, recovers fast and become a major threat
- WP can grind and throw 4-5 divisions at a spot, and I found it hard to enable a breach. I just to much casualties to effectively cause a panick.
Any thoughts from other folks?
11-20-2013, 01:25 AM
(11-19-2013, 02:45 PM)Witblitz Wrote: [ -> ]Sirs
On my second run with 5.1.
1st Run I did as NATO, and it went well.
2nd Run as WP and its not so good atm. Feelings from my side on it:
- WP just don't have enough quality troops
- NATO can escape too easy
- WP Artillery feels weak
- Once a defense is dug in(even after lower values), its tough to destroy/disrupt NATO
- Any NATO left, recovers fast and become a major threat
- WP can grind and throw 4-5 divisions at a spot, and I found it hard to enable a breach. I just to much casualties to effectively cause a panick.
Any thoughts from other folks?
We came to those conclusions for the most part a few weeks back and some adjustments have been made and 2 games have started with these changes but are only on about turn 2. On the other side there is some games where the WP is doing fine so i think it comes down to experience of the players playing and of course strategy. But i am adjusting this game with the thought of 2 experts playing and the WP still needed a little help.
**** WG 12.Panzer Division. The division is under US VII Corps command for Stuttgart defense DONE
**** Change WP unit recovery from 1 to 3 DONE
**** Changed the WP release from turn 2 to turn 1 DONE
**** Lower Austrian troops morale to C and D from B and C. DONE
**** Removed all AT ditches and obstacles from Austria except the ones around the fixed Austrian troops DONE
**** Up AT guns 85mm-21 HA 100mm-24 HA DONE
**** unflagged Dutch, Belgian and Canadian M-109s from being able to use WMDs DONE
**** Flag some ART as low reliability. D-1, M-30,M-46 and 85mm D-44 DONE
**** Panzerlehrbrigade 9 was stationed in the wrong Munster, moved East to correct Munster(Örtze). Shifted a few Dutch Bdes back west because of this DONE
**** Tank value changes.Thought Inf was killing a tad to many tanks but didnt want to change the tank on tank kills so i raised all tanks 3 HA and 3 DEF, by keeping INF HA the same this will lower tank kills to INF a tad but keep tank on tank the same. I then made these adjustments.... -3 HA to Leo1a1,a2,a3,a4,T-54/55,T72,T72M,Sk-105,M48a2g2,AMX-30,M60A1,M1....+3 DEF to T-72A, T72M1......+1 HA to T-64A/B DONE
**** Lowered Nato replacment rates around 10-20% depending on unit DONE
**** +6 HA to all ATGM units DONE
**** +18 HA to all Attack Helos DONE
**** Raise DEF on SF/Spets units from 20 to 28 and lower Assault from 18 to 9 DONE
**** Lower digin from 25 to 20 (60 for engineers) DONE
**** West German Heimatschutze HQs will show up 100% of the time now DONE
**** The ACE Mobile force got an overhaul in the OOB and the Jutland strategy for both sides has been redone DONE
**** a bunch of assorted other new graphics here and there DONE
ARM TRK 33 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 33 18 18 T M1
ARM TRK 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 36 18 17 T M1A1
ARM TRK 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 17 T M1A1HA
ARM TRK 27 1 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 22 15 17 0 Leopard 1A1
ARM TRK 27 1 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 23 15 17 0 Leopard 1BE
ARM TRK 27 1 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 23 15 17 0 Leopard 1A2
ARM TRK 27 1 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 0 Leopard 1V Dutch
ARM TRK 27 1 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 0 Leopard 1A3
ARM TRK 27 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 0 Leopard 1A4
ARM TRK 33 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 17 T Leopard 1A5
ARM TRK 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 T Leopard 2A1
ARM TRK 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 T Leopard 2A2
ARM TRK 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 18 T Leopard 2A3
ARM TRK 42 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 18 T Leopard 2A4
ARM TRK 21 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 18 15 12 0 Centurion MK III DK
ARM TRK 24 1 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 20 15 12 0 Centurion Mk5
ARM TRK 39 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 42 21 15 T Challenger I
ARM TRK 36 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 33 18 14 T ChieftainMkXI
ARM TRK 36 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 33 18 14 0 ChieftainMkX
ARM TRK 36 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 14 0 ChieftainMkV
ARM TRK 27 1 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 22 15 14 0 M60A1
ARM TRK 30 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 23 15 14 T M60A3
ARM TRK 21 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 20 15 14 0 M48A3E
ARM TRK 27 1 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 20 15 14 0 M48A2G2
ARM TRK 27 1 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 23 15 17 0 AMX-30B/E
ARM TRK 30 2 0 21 1 0 2 0 0 24 15 17 T AMX-30B2
ARM TRK 12 1 0 12 1 0 2 0 0 12 15 14 0 PT-76
ARM TRK 21 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 18 15 14 0 T-54
ARM TRK 21 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 18 15 14 0 T-55
ARM TRK 27 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 20 15 15 0 T-55M
ARM TRK 27 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 23 15 15 0 T-55AM
ARM TRK 24 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 21 15 16 0 T-72
ARM TRK 24 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 21 15 16 0 T-72M
ARM TRK 30 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 16 0 T-72M1
ARM TRK 30 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 16 0 T-72A
ARM TRK 33 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 36 21 16 0 T-72B
ARM TRK 33 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 27 15 16 0 T-64A/B
ARM TRK 33 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 33 21 16 0 T-64BV
ARM TRK 36 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 30 15 17 0 T-80B
ARM TRK 36 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 33 21 17 0 T-80BV
ARM TRK 39 2 0 18 1 0 2 0 0 39 21 17 0 T-80U
ARM TRK 27 1 0 15 1 0 2 0 0 15 15 17 0 SK-105 Kurassier
Biggest thing here is NATO will no longer get 2 free moves, the WP moves on turn 1 now. So think the game you just played and now factor in Nato not getting that second move........
Aaron
11-20-2013, 10:22 AM
Aaron - if you are planning a new Bolt version:
* I would also suggest adding "alarm" units per my above post for the NATO mobile SAM belt units. These can be 1 man units with no values whose purpose is basically to release their associated NATO SAM units when the "alarm" units get spotted/attacked. As NATO, I found that the vagaries of play often had combat occurring near to fixed NATO SAM units but these units were not released since it was close terrain. Some units even got surrounded without being released. The "alarm" units should be about 10 hexes forward and on a hill or some such.
* There is an issue with the way air interdiction works whereby it seems towed artillery and the big truck-borne infantry battalions really get overly punished. I realize some of this is built into the PZC system so its hard to change. But maybe there is some tweak that can be done...
I also had some NATO OOB questions:
* Some of the NATO corps have decent dedicated AA units, e.g. the French and US Corps and of course the BAOR (which is flush with them, once they all reach the front). Others like the Belgians and Dutch are really bereft, with nothing more than close-range Vulcan type units unless a mobile SAM is released and available, while the West Germans are only so-so (basically one mobile SAM per division if you break up the 36 vehicle corps unit). I had thought NATO Corps were heavily standardized on things like corps assets. Were the Belgians, Dutch and West Germans really that behind the French, British and US in having air defense against Pact attack helos?
* I am wondering if the West German Heimatschutze HQ release is too randomized. Early on, there are tons of Heimatschutze marching around but they quickly end up low fuel/ammo because their HQ isn't around yet. Might at least they be on-map, even if fixed until release? That would help a bit with the randomness. Until this is WAD
That said, I am sort of up in the air about terrain defense values. I like the idea of adding in VP hexes that encourage NATO to defend every inch. But with low terrain values and trench values plus fluid zoc, NATO is dead meat if it tries to hold the border.
Depends on what you want to model I guess. If people want a far-ranging "march to the Rhine" style battle then making it fluid works. But I could also see the clash turning static due to the massive firepower, a la WW1 or the 1980-1988 Iraq-Iran War. I think if you go fluid, you need to move some of the VP hexes back a ways.
Just my two cents.
* I would also suggest adding "alarm" units per my above post for the NATO mobile SAM belt units. These can be 1 man units with no values whose purpose is basically to release their associated NATO SAM units when the "alarm" units get spotted/attacked. As NATO, I found that the vagaries of play often had combat occurring near to fixed NATO SAM units but these units were not released since it was close terrain. Some units even got surrounded without being released. The "alarm" units should be about 10 hexes forward and on a hill or some such.
* There is an issue with the way air interdiction works whereby it seems towed artillery and the big truck-borne infantry battalions really get overly punished. I realize some of this is built into the PZC system so its hard to change. But maybe there is some tweak that can be done...
I also had some NATO OOB questions:
* Some of the NATO corps have decent dedicated AA units, e.g. the French and US Corps and of course the BAOR (which is flush with them, once they all reach the front). Others like the Belgians and Dutch are really bereft, with nothing more than close-range Vulcan type units unless a mobile SAM is released and available, while the West Germans are only so-so (basically one mobile SAM per division if you break up the 36 vehicle corps unit). I had thought NATO Corps were heavily standardized on things like corps assets. Were the Belgians, Dutch and West Germans really that behind the French, British and US in having air defense against Pact attack helos?
* I am wondering if the West German Heimatschutze HQ release is too randomized. Early on, there are tons of Heimatschutze marching around but they quickly end up low fuel/ammo because their HQ isn't around yet. Might at least they be on-map, even if fixed until release? That would help a bit with the randomness. Until this is WAD
That said, I am sort of up in the air about terrain defense values. I like the idea of adding in VP hexes that encourage NATO to defend every inch. But with low terrain values and trench values plus fluid zoc, NATO is dead meat if it tries to hold the border.
Depends on what you want to model I guess. If people want a far-ranging "march to the Rhine" style battle then making it fluid works. But I could also see the clash turning static due to the massive firepower, a la WW1 or the 1980-1988 Iraq-Iran War. I think if you go fluid, you need to move some of the VP hexes back a ways.
Just my two cents.