Scheldt '44 Deception Units

[Green]

I am just wanting to confirm that since Wired bridges are used in Scheldt '44, the Deception Damage percentage has no effect.

The User Manual explains this parameter as;

"Enemy engineer units attempting to blow bridges or otherwise cause damage are subject to possible failure of this action. The probability of this happening is determined by the Deception Damage probability."

The reason I ask is that this value varies across the .pdt files used in this game. This seems odd if the value is irrelevant. Having done some quick testing, wired bridges in the range of a deployed Deception unit still seem to blow at the expected rate even when Deception Damage is set to 100% and there are no enemy units patrolling.

It appears deploying Deception units will usually be of little value as their only potential effect is to disrupt enemy units in travel mode. Since the Deception Effect parameter is never greater than 1% the chance of this is 'slight' as mentioned in the Notes. And even this chance can be negated by patrolling. I have no problem with this but I just want to make sure I have got this right and am not missing something important. 

As a side issue I think the wording in the manual is somewhat confusing. It mentions that "Irregular units never utilize Deception effects" but since Irregular units can also be Deception units this is not strictly speaking always correct.

[ComradeP]

If there are wired bridges, it won't have an effect because engineer units can't blow up bridges (regardless of whether they're wired or did not blow up when an enemy unit moved adjacent). This is more of a scenario than a PDT feature strictly speaking.

I find deception units quite useful in Market Garden for moving "behind" German units as they can move ZOC-to-ZOC. Even if they can't easily disrupt movement, placing them on a road will still require the Germans to remove them before they can use the road. That can be a frustrating affair.

[Green]

If there are wired bridges, it won't have an effect because engineer units can't blow up bridges (regardless of whether they're wired or did not blow up when an enemy unit moved adjacent). This is more of a scenario than a PDT feature strictly speaking.

I find deception units quite useful in Market Garden for moving "behind" German units as they can move ZOC-to-ZOC. Even if they can't easily disrupt movement, placing them on a road will still require the Germans to remove them before they can use the road. That can be a frustrating affair.

Yes, I understand that Engineers cannot blow bridges if the scenario uses Wired bridges. The question was whether the probability of a wired bridge blowing automatically could  be affected by deception units. It does not appear so but you could certainly make a case that it should.

(Edit: I have removed a confusing comment I made regarding the second point above as I incorrectly thought it related to deployed Deception units)

[ComradeP]

In that case I misunderstood your comment, apologies.

As far as I can tell the PDT value only has an effect on actual engineer units not on the abstracted guy running to the plunger as soon as the enemy arrives.

[Green]

As far as I can tell the PDT value only has an effect on actual engineer units not on the abstracted guy running to the plunger as soon as the enemy arrives.

Certainly appears that way.

Puzzling why a new optional rule for Extended Patrolling was created just to cancel out a 'slight' chance of disrupting units in travel mode. Particularly since the Allied player knows that the effect of using Deception units can be easily cancelled, I suspect he will not bother to use them in this way (except when they start the scenario already deployed). Yet this new optional rule is described in the Notes as "critical for balancing #0906_01_Herbststurm and #0906_01_Albert_Canal". Seems odd.

Guess I will have to play these before it will make any sense to me.

[phoenix]

I notice, playing the Albert Canal first bloody triangle scenario that Axis units are disrupted quite a lot by 'deception units' that are not actually counters on the map - virtual deception units (I'm playing myself, hotseat). Same mechanism as units being interdicted by air strikes that aren't actually planned, I suppose. I guess this is normal. Don't recall ever seeing it before, though.

[Green]

I notice, playing the Albert Canal first bloody triangle scenario that Axis units are disrupted quite a lot by 'deception units' that are not actually counters on the map - virtual deception units (I'm playing myself, hotseat). Same mechanism as units being interdicted by air strikes that aren't actually planned, I suppose.  I guess this is normal. Don't recall ever seeing it before, though.

I think you will find that they are real rather than 'virtual' Deception Units. It is just that they start the scenario already deployed. You should be able to recall them at midnight or once they end a turn stacked with a friendly unit. And presumably patrolling will stop the disruptions that have been occurring.

But not having played the scenario, I am speculating.

[phoenix]

Ah. Maybe you're right and I'm forgetting how it works. So when they are MY deception units - they are Allied units - I can't see them in my turn (until the midnight turn)? Is that it?

I'll check the dialogue. They should be listed there, anyway, right? I didn't think to do that....

UPDATE: Yep. They're all there in the dialogue. LOl. Quite a lot of them.

Thanks.

[Green]

Ah. Maybe you're right and I'm forgetting how it works. So when they are MY deception units - they are Allied units - I can't see them in my turn (until the midnight turn)? Is that it?

I'll check the dialogue. They should be listed there, anyway, right? I didn't think to do that....

UPDATE: Yep. They're all there in the dialogue. LOl. Quite a lot of them.

Thanks.

But they should be visible to you when you are the Allied player. They are just shown as a unit with a '?'.

[phoenix]

Yep. They are. My stupidity, sorry. Thanks.