FWWC: Night Movement

[ComradeP]

Quite a bit has changed since I joined as well, the PzC/MC/PB system is evolving with each release.

It's worth noting that night movement disruption is a PDT value, not an optional rule, so if the night movement disruption value is 0% (as in: it was never changed after the mechanic was patched into that specific older title) it will never occur.

That's the case in stock Smolensk '41 scenarios and the stock Kharkov '43 scenarios, for example. I'm not sure how many stock scenarios/campaigns in older games were changed, or if mostly alt versions of the scenarios/campaigns in pre-2011 titles use night movement disruption.

[Strela]

Road stacking limits in FWWC are generous compared to those in PzC titles.

In both series, the road stacking limit and the maximum stacking limit are also two different values.

When moving a unit or stack would mean the maximum stacking limit is exceeded in the destination hex, movement is impossible.

The maximum stacking limit can only be exceeded by reinforcements appearing in the hex, the unit or stack recovering strength through replacements/recovery so their total strength exceeds the maximum stacking limit or units using rail movement moving into/through the hex (the units can't leave rail mode when that would overstack the hex). 

When moving a unit or stack would mean the road stacking limit is exceeded in the destination hex, the selected unit or stack won't benefit from moving along the road and normal movement costs for moving into the terrain in the destination hex apply.

A single unit can always move along a road, even if it has a size that exceeds the road stacking limit. The road stacking limit is only applied when a stack is created through a move.

Example: in many PzC games, the road stacking limit is about 2 companies worth of units, but single battalions can travel along a road in T-mode.

Okay I get all that.  I even get the design decision to make night movement cause disruption for the time period.  I don't believe I should have to stop and calculate the stacking value before moving a unit.  If the stacking limit is X the game should prevent me from moving into the hex if the value is exceeded.  I can (and do) play lots of board wargames that all the counter handling is necessary, that should not be the case with a PC game.  In almost 10 years of testing PzC games for Glenn I don't believe stacking ever once came up as an issue, it was what it was, whether on roads or deployed.  But then again, no one was disrupting the units because a number value had been exceeded.  I was playing around with PzB series game yesterday, if a move exceeded stacking value the game prevented the move.  That's how it's supposed to work.  As it is in FWWC with night moves you have to move every unit one hex at a time lest the AI take you off road and cause disruption.  

It is what it is, I ain't gotta agree with it (and don't).

I think the point is still being missed here by Steel God.

For night moves, you can not enter a hex if you exceed the overall stacking limit. This is what he remembers and has seen in PzB. This has not changed and is nominally usually ~1,500 men in most PzC titles. 

As ComradeP points out there is a lesser road stacking limit, usually 350 to 400 men. This is the critical number when it come to night moves. A unit in travel mode will potentially disrupt if it moves through a second unit if the road stacking limit is exceeded. It won’t be able to enter the hex if the overall stacking limit is exceeded. The grey area is if the value is between the two, as you’re not advised that you may disrupt.

So the moral is check stacking when moving through other units on a road at night.

Personally, I think the system handles it perfectly and it’s another incentive to stop and rest...

David

[Steel God]

I think the point is still being missed here by Steel God.

For night moves, you can not enter a hex if you exceed the overall stacking limit. This is what he remembers and has seen in PzB. This has not changed and is nominally usually ~1,500 men in most PzC titles. 

As ComradeP points out there is a lesser road stacking limit, usually 350 to 400 men. This is the critical number when it come to night moves. A unit in travel mode will potentially disrupt if it moves through a second unit if the road stacking limit is exceeded. It won’t be able to enter the hex if the overall stacking limit is exceeded. The grey area is if the value is between the two, as you’re not advised that you may disrupt.

So the moral is check stacking when moving through other units on a road at night.

Personally, I think the system handles it perfectly and it’s another incentive to stop and rest...

David

David;
    Nope, not missed, I understand it fully, I'm just saying that a) I don't agree with the decision (but certainly respect the designers right to do it); and b) I think that if the designer exercises the right to design it that way, the player shouldn't have to remember it's going to happen.  Maybe a warning that you're about to over stack if not a mechanism that just doesn't allow you to over stack in the first place.  I mean it is a computer game, if I want to check the rule book constantly I can stick with board games, and no one is going to intentionally do something if they know the result ends badly.  So this disruption only happens "when you forget" or "by accident".   But as you say, the lesson here is that it's another reason not to move at night, which goes back to my original post (then in jest maybe more serious now) that in FWWC instead of even having night turns just have an auto turn that advances the clock X hours and applies fatigue recovery and disruption removal calculations from every counter and then poof it's Sunrise.  That is the net effect when there are so many reasons why it's bad to do anything at night. 
     To each his own, and that's a good thing, because it would be a boring world if everything was the same.  vive la différence



Paul

[Mr Grumpy]

No I don't agree with all your points here, there are countless examples in history of commanders using the dark as a cover for either moving men/guns/vehicles into positions for a attack at daylight or using darkness as an opportunity to slip away from a disadvantageous position, so although it is normally best to rest as many units as possible (because of night fatigue) there are occasions when you should move selected units at night, your suggestion that absolutely nothing should happen at night would ruin this feature that requires the player to use his judgement to move or to rest and if moving anything which units should he select?

To some extent I understand your suggestion that you should get a warning if you are about to exceed the road stacking limits on a night move, but then again in real life would you receive such a warning if two columns of men moving at night are about to collide resulting in men becoming disrupted? Once again I see that as a player skill in arranging his units so this does not happen and if you do make a mistake and overstack is that not just like an actual commander (or his subordinates) making the same mistake?

I really like this feature as it introduces yet another judgement a player has to make, it has never caused me any issues apart from cursing on the odd occasions when I disrupt units by making a mistake! 

[Steel God]

No I don't agree with all your points here, there are countless examples in history of commanders using the dark as a cover for either moving men/guns/vehicles into positions for a attack at daylight or using darkness as an opportunity to slip away from a disadvantageous position, so although it is normally best to rest as many units as possible (because of night fatigue) there are occasions when you should move selected units at night, your suggestion that absolutely nothing should happen at night would ruin this feature that requires the player to use his judgement to move or to rest and if moving anything which units should he select?

To some extent I understand your suggestion that you should get a warning if you are about to exceed the road stacking limits on a night move, but then again in real life would you receive such a warning if two columns of men moving at night are about to collide resulting in men becoming disrupted? Once again I see that as a player skill in arranging his units so this does not happen and if you do make a mistake and overstack is that not just like an actual commander (or his subordinates) making the same mistake?

I really like this feature as it introduces yet another judgement a player has to make, it has never caused me any issues apart from cursing on the odd occasions when I disrupt units by making a mistake! 

Well, like I said Darran, that's what makes the world go round.  I'm a gamer, I want a good game, a fun game, and a fair game.  I don't expect it to be just like being on the battlefield.  FWWC seems to be sub-titled "whatever can go wrong, will go wrong", which on the battlefield and especially a 1914 battlefield, I guess that's very realistic.  Does it make it fun though?  The answer to that is one of personal taste.

[Volcano Man]

Right, the initial problem is certainly caused by violating the road stacking limit. This is nothing new though, it would be like trying to move a large stack of units down a road in the day time (in any game series). You wouldn't get the night disruption in the day move, but you also wouldn't be getting the benefit of the road anyway either.

As for frustration, you don't have to move each unit one at a time down the road at night, but certainly doing so is the safest option.

If you mean that you are trying to move a division column down a road a night, you just have to get the division to conform to stacking limits, and then use the organization movement to move the entire division down the road, and you will avoid the disruptions. Best to move in short intervals with the division movement at night, so you can make sure the AI doesn't try to peel off the road to save MPs (and get disrupted).

But really, here is the thing:

If you are marching units at night, then you are considered to be in a 'forced march' stance, where you are going to be incurring a lot of fatigue over time if you do this continuously. So the point is, there shouldn't be much moving at night. So, you suggest a single night turn. No, the night is used for other things too, like allowing someone to force march if they so desire, or (more often), allowing some limited movements AND some resting (essentially splitting the night into active and inactive turns for units). Often its a good idea to suffer disruption at night to move tactically into important locations, or you want to fire at your enemy on the night turns, in the intent of rotating your active units out with fresh ones during the day to press the attack on defenders that you denied rest/sleep to.

But mainly the two night turns allow someone to do things that their opponent might not be using the night turns for. One side might be using both night turns to rest, and so they just skip them. Other other opponent might need the two night turns to break contact and prepare for withdrawal (especially of artillery and MGs for example). So it really depends on the situation.

Hopefully that helps. ;)

[Volcano Man]

Does it make it fun though?  The answer to that is one of personal taste.

Yes, but isn't that true of every wargame? Maybe FWWC isn't your cup of tea, OK, that is a possibility - but I tend to think it might be more to do with experience over time. But yes, some people like the time WW1 period, subject matter, and the mechanics, and some don't. The same is true for the ACW series, Napoleonic series, Panzer Campaigns, Modern Campaigns, Naval Campaigns, or any wargame really.

So, yes, of course everything is up to personal taste.