Did the Gold Treatment help with Minsk 44 ?

[Don Czirr]

Reading through some old posts on Minsk '44, it seems that there was some frustration and dissatisfaction from the Soviet perspective about being a bit of a slog.

Has anyone gone back and played Minsk '44 after the Gold treatment and have an updated evaluation of  the game?

(Looking for a good / fluid Soviet major offensive game - so this subject matter is of interest)

[-72-]

Reading through some old posts on Minsk '44, it seems that there was some frustration and dissatisfaction from the Soviet perspective about being a bit of a slog.

Has anyone gone back and played Minsk '44 after the Gold treatment and have an updated evaluation of  the game?

(Looking for a good / fluid Soviet major offensive game - so this subject matter is of interest)

I don't know about slog- I never played the WDS version- and played a couple of smaller scenarios as the Soviets, plus the campaign as same.  I was pretty much wiping the floor with the Germans, to the point where it didn't even seem fair -- and this was against human players, not the AI.

I mean sure you have to play as the Soviets, differently than you would as the Germans in 1941 over the same basic ground - but isn't that really the point of playing as the Soviets.

I mean - find German Armour, find 88's -concentrate on them- render them neutralised, and just push everywhere.

Personally I would think that the German player might find themselves punch-drunk after a short time.

What I think might be interesting, is to write up a series of play guides in how playing as the Soviets, basically evolves from 1941 - 45 - especially with their offensives, from the winter in front of Moscow, the Izyum Pocket, encircling Stalingrad, countering Kharkov 43, Kursk, Korsun, Bagration, then Budapest, not to mention anything else that ends up getting put out there.  Something to do down the track, I'm sure...   (edited -- forgot Rzhev -- but -same point ... all of them -especially ones with big Russian pushes, regardless of if they worked out as anticipated (because that actually would be the point of analyzing and comparing/contrasting them.

but yeh, considering the version as it was released was basically a Russian steamroller - which it was historically... not sure what could be done differently and retain the character of the campaign.

[Fortynslow]

I just happen to be putzing through the campaign game solitaire right now and am on turn 12 out of 168. It looks to me like the pressure on the Soviets relates to time. The Soviets need to amass 12000 pts just to get to the Minor Defeat level, and 24000 pts to claim a Major Victory. Just based on my cursory analysis, it looks like one would have to take Minsk in order to win, which is some 200-250 hexes away from the Soviet start line, with several major river lines in between. In addition, the Soviets have limited bridging capabilities in the game and there is the several turn delay at each river to build the bridges. I have not looked at the German dispositions, but maybe a competent German player, could, by withdrawing strategically, and concentrating on river crossings and delaying the Soviets at VP sites, could compete.

[blond_knight]

I have Minsk but havent played it much. I remember people saying it was tedious because of all the river crossings.
My question: Is the Soviet AI capable of rebuilding bridges if I as the German player blow them?

[76mm]

I played the Minsk 44 campaign as Soviet vs the AI. Honestly it was probably one of my least favorite wargaming experiences ever. Breaking through the German lines is a fairly tedious process, then once you do so your main job is to manage the huge traffic jams caused by the many rivers, swamps, blown bridges, etc. Just not very fun... This was the pre-Gold version, but I can't imagine how the Gold version would have changed any of this...

For what is is worth, this is the only campaign I've played against the AI where I didn't get an easy Decisive Victory; in fact, IIRC I had a Minor Defeat; I think I captured almost every objective on the map but apparently didn't do it quickly enough, or had too many casualties, I don't recall.

In any event, not a campaign I want to try again.

[Strela]

Keep in mind that the Gold version has Brian Jennings new campaign game.

It included some of the following;
New Minsk '44 Campaign Game by Brian Jennings. Scenario #0623_02_Minsk_CG_Alt is a completely revised campaign game including strategy options and larger forces for both sides. A broader partisan war is also included.

[Lowlander]

Keep in mind that the Gold version has Brian Jennings new campaign game.

It included some of the following;
New Minsk '44 Campaign Game by Brian Jennings. Scenario #0623_02_Minsk_CG_Alt is a completely revised campaign game including strategy options and larger forces for both sides. A broader partisan war is also included.

Yes I concur, I am currently playing this scenario as the Germans, and have set advantage at 50% for the Russian AI.
This gives you a better game with a lot more headaches if you want to withdraw from well fortified front lines to a river.
A multitude of partisans turn up behind the lines, a lot more than stock scenarios.
Things were going swimmingly well , however, a lot of German units are crumbling under continuous combat.
Very enjoyable game over varied terrain which is another set of problems.
The SS Panzer Korps are excellent but manoeuvring them into position might be more difficult due to unforeseen blocks.

[Landser34]

To me this is my favorite east front game The Russians finally got a pretty much one sided game like most of the other ones heavily favor the Germans .I love being able to pummel the Germans under an artillery barrage then send in the infantry to grind them under and race armor around their flanks and trap them.

[Don Czirr]

To me this is my favorite east front game The Russians finally got a pretty much one sided game like most of the other ones heavily favor the Germans .I love being able to pummel the Germans under an artillery barrage then send in the infantry to grind them under and race armor around their flanks and trap them.

That does sound like a refreshing perspective and may be a good pick to experience some mechanics of the Soviet Deep Battle doctrine. 

The challenge in such I game I would think, would be to fine tune turn limits / scoring ....

Landser - in a PBEM game, would a competent German player have a chance with any of these scenarios? Or do they all seem too one sided?

[Lowlander]

Keep in mind that the Gold version has Brian Jennings new campaign game.

It included some of the following;
New Minsk '44 Campaign Game by Brian Jennings. Scenario #0623_02_Minsk_CG_Alt is a completely revised campaign game including strategy options and larger forces for both sides. A broader partisan war is also included.

Yes I concur, I am currently playing this scenario as the Germans, and have set advantage at 50% for the Russian AI.
This gives you a better game with a lot more headaches if you want to withdraw from well fortified front lines to a river.
A multitude of partisans turn up behind the lines, a lot more than stock scenarios.
Things were going swimmingly well , however, a lot of German units are crumbling under continuous combat.
Very enjoyable game over varied terrain which is another set of problems.
The SS Panzer Korps are excellent but manoeuvring them into position might be more difficult due to unforeseen blocks.

I forgot to mention Hitler's stand fast orders, which is represented by the fixed units, another little problem.