Ren1.05 Large Bug?

[TheGrayMouser]

HI, Rich was kind enough to  provide me a link to update my old HPS Ren game to the JT version version to take advantage of the latest patch version 1.05.      So the installer was already for version 1.05 so there no real way its a corruption or bad "patching" on my end or anything, but before I post a bug report to JT's website, I'd like to see if others can see what I do.

In any mode of the game,  vs AI, hotseat, defensive fire on ( ie phase play) or off, the following units will NEVER fire opportunity fire (if playing phase play off),  or fire during the AI defensive fire turn ( phases on)

Obviously I checked to ensure all units had the appropriate weapons to actually fire...
So these units fail to shoot:
1) Cavalry
2) units in column formation

Also, said units will also not shoot when they are melee attacked...

I also tested the units with the tercio weapon too,  they work as normal when in block formation but do not shoot when in column...

Units in line and artillery seem unnaffected, as do skirmishers.

I havent reinstalled 7 Years War yet, and I wonder if the same bug is in there?  ( it likly would not be easily spotted in the 7YW as noone in there right mind, even Mr Ai would allow the enemy to get close while in column in that game!!)

[-72-]

Disclaimer:

I haven't noticed it myself- but I am generally not playing solo, and am not watching replays all the often (ok hardly ever) -for when I am doing PBEM.

I do know that you can set firing in column by a PDT setting ( as well as adjust its effectiveness), so that might be something impacting column, over and above just having a firing weapon type.

It is going to be something that I need to pay attention to as I am using column (without the ability to form line)  to represent formations that are bigger (and deeper) targets than a line would represent... so naturally if firing is not working that might prove problematic, to say the least.

I don't know about the cavalry -issue.  I do know that weaponry has 2 ratings - fire values against unarmored, as well as armored targets - in theory the only time it shouldn't is when there is a weapon is not rated to fire against an unarmored or armored target.  That would be in the pdt as well.

I'm no clear on what scenario is using Tercio weapon type - just saying I don't remember which specific scenario(s) is(are) using that one.

• The short version of this, is it might be best to drop Rich a line with your game file.
  

SYW - iirc Gary changed around the column fire pdt setting so that these would be used as a movement formation only, not a combat formation - so they probably don't fire in column, due to a setting in the pdt tha was applied across the board in all of the scenarios.

[Gary McClellan]

The setting changed in SYW was simply to gut the fire effectiveness of column. As you say, that's a game specific thing, and can be set differently for different games. There was no change (so far as I know) to the actual logic of the AI firing.

As Steve said, fire files at Rich.

[agmoss99]

I never bother with replays either so haven't noticed. But personally I'd think column firing was highly unlikely in that period, so bug or not, I could live with it. Certainly columns can fire when instructed manually but I rarely do that.

[TheGrayMouser]

I never bother with replays either so haven't noticed. But personally I'd think column firing was highly unlikely in that period, so bug or not, I could live with it. Certainly columns can fire when instructed manually but I rarely do that.

I would agree with you if your referring to 7YW but if your referring to Ren your way off :)   That game covers tribal Irish warriors to massed feudal levies from Persia, The Ottomans etc.  Many of these troops can ONLY form column, use bows javelins etc.  Heck some of the scenarios have arquebus units , which basically could be 20 ranks deep that can only form column as well...

So, in 7YW columns are exclusively march columns, in Ren they are deep combat formations.

 Its seems pretty clear the latest patches ( interestingly enough which added column melee modifiers on a nation basis )  are likely the culprit...

Sadly I just reinstalled 7YW and the same problem is there as well with the shooting and I discovered another issue too.

Gary you might be interested as I assume you are the one that set up the PDT in 7YW to give column units a -60% melee modifier?   Possible bug or just the engine... however have you ever attacked a unit in column in 7YW in melee?  The -60% does NOT show up in the combat odds,  and the units fight back with no real evidence of any mal bonus.
I should probably start a new thread on this because columns kicking ass defending in melee in 7YW could be part of the basic combat resolution model ( well documented in the manuals for all these games, Nap included) where the defender gets a huge bonus in melee,  which mathematically is roughly 60%....   It could very well be your modifier of -60% is working as intended but merely washes out with the natural mega bonus defenders have, making columns basically equal to line in melee..)   However,  since the modifier doesnt display, and it should,  I still think its a bug.

[TheGrayMouser]

BTW, if anyone doesnt know what I mean by this inherent defensive bonus all defenders get in melee, this is from the manuals from the Ren engine the 7yw engine, the Nap engines the EAWars games ( and likey in the Civil war games too...)


"Melee Resolution The final resolution of the melee is done using the standard Combat Results. The adjusted defending strength is used to calculate attacker casualties using a Low Combat Value of 40 and a High Combat Value of 160. The adjusted attacking strength is used to calculate defender casualties using a Low Combat Value of 20 and a High Combat Value of 100. Example: Suppose an infantry unit of 450 men melee attacks an enemy infantry unit of 230 men. Two combat results are determined. The attackers would determine a low end casualty value of 9 (= 20 * 450 / 1000) and a high end casualty value of 45 (= 100 * 450 / 1000). The casualty loss of the defenders would be randomly determined between these two extremes. Likewise, the defenders would determine a low end casualty value of 9.2 (= 40 * 230 / 1000) and a high end casualty value of 36.8 (= 160 * 230 / 1000). The casualty loss of the attackers would be randomly determined between these two extremes. "

As you can see, if an attacker with strength of 1000 and a defender of 1000 melee, the attacker will lose between 40 and 160 men while the defender will lose 20-100.. This is basically roughly a 60% bonus to the defender!! So if you ever wonder why your squadron of 250 elite Caribiniers with Ney in the stack, melees a stack of of 500 leaderless heavily fatigued, disordered cossacks, in the flank, down hill and you lose 50 men to 30, this is why !!

BTW I dont believe this defense bonus was ever meant to be a simulation of some supposed melee advantage a "defender' has , but was implemented to counteract the stacking and great movement values that active player has to work with, and thus to prevent blitzing... Its my least favorite part of these games, especially Ren where melee is still the decisive factor historically, at least the first half of the era that that game represents. There so many other ways this could have been done, oh well. I doudt it will be changed any time soon but it would be nice if it could be added down the road as a changable value in the PDT files..

The good news for me( and anyone else whom has noticed an does not like this phenomena) is I have recently discovered the weather entry lines and realized their is an attacker melee modifier one can stick in there. Iv'e tried it and a plus 50-60% seems to "equalize" the combat ..

[Gary McClellan]

I have to leave in a second (I should already be on the road). I know that the display of combat results in full display can get strange, but I did test melee vs units in column back in the day. That was one of the things I made a point of checking, but I'll recheck it when I get home or in the next couple of days (busy few days here.)

[TheGrayMouser]

I have to leave in a second (I should already be on the road).  I know that the display of combat results in full display can get strange, but I did test melee vs units in column back in the day.  That was one of the things I made a point of checking, but I'll recheck it when I get home or in the next couple of days (busy few days here.)

HI Gary, had some conversations with Rich, so on a hunch I went back to test columns in 7YW.  It appears the melee modifier for units in column by nation PDT entries only affect attacking columns, not defending columns...   Not ideal for modders or even common sense  ( why does a march column defend normally but attack horribly? ) They should have the same mal.)     

Rich indicated also that the AI is programmed not to opp fire while in column  ( and apparently if cavalry and has a weapon that can shoot,  I presume?)  and not even in the defensive fire phase... or when meleed, although if you are playing with defensive fire on you can chose to do so as the human player...   Is this a first for JT games where the AI now plays by different rules than the human?  

I suppose these changes are reasonable for the 7YW but it isnt good news for modders.

It really not good at all for the Ren game though,  hopefully the change can be revisited for that game.

[Gary McClellan]

I just wanted to give a quick update on this. We've got the M&P team looking at this in light of both games and a few other aspects. I can't give any real timetable beyond that, but this isn't forgotten.