understanding Command and Supply

[Steelwhip]

Ok...ive been having some issues with command and control and supply. 

Currently playing the '56 campaign in Middle East '67 (explicit supply is on)

What im reading in the rules doesnt exactley mesh with what im looking at happening in game. For example fuel shortages-it says to fix a fuel shortage a unit needs to be in command range of its HQ when the midnight turn rolls around. I have done this with units low on fuel and not only have the units not been restocked but other units in the formation (in HQ range) have gone low on fuel.

So im guessing im not understanding command and supply as much as I thought I did.

anyone want to give a basic rundown on how its supposed to work in game. 

thanks in advance!

[Ricky B]

You need to dig in and find the explicit supply optional rules, as they override the rules you are seeing. So units will go low fuel/ammo as normal, based on supply levels, but to recover, you need to move a supply unit within range and deploy it. Even then, if there are multiple units low fuel/ammo, there may not be enough to go around and a unit you really want to get supplied is left out in the cold.

Rick

[Steelwhip]

ahhh okies...thats the part I was missing..that the explicit supplies override the normal supply rules and I need to get supply trucks to those units then. Ok..that I can do...I just couldnt figure out why they were not getting refueled through the HQs....and that under Explicit they dont refuel from the HQs......totally didnt even think about that.

which now brings up a seperate issue....
supply depots have a range of 10 (at least in the campaign im playing right now) I also have...2 or 3 units of supply trucks. The range of 10 for the depots doesn't seem that much to sustain a campaign advance across the Sinai of about 100 hexes....how am I supposed to sustain advances across such long distances?

[Ricky B]

If the supply is fairly well balanced, you will have enough supply trucks to mostly keep your units moving and fighting, unless there were historically shortages. But you as the player can control some parts of that, and not always firing artillery, for example, may be needed to keep supply up. Or not supplying a brigade or two, etc. You have to play and see what works for you. One hint, depending on the situation - don't move units a short distance in a single turn, especially late in the day, and then them stationary the balance of the day, as the units will use as much fuel - i.e. go low fuel as often - whether they move one hex or the max every turn.

In Bulge with explicit supply, I avoided moving a German division that released right before midnight so I wouldn't use any fuel for a single turn. Just some thoughts to keep in mind and experience will help.

Rick

[Steelwhip]

those are good insights i had not realized before.

Those are the type of hints and 'real world' lessons I wish could be put together in a helpers or new players guide. I play a lot of games. A LOT. There are very few I have played enough to get into the meat and bones of HOW to use the system to my best advantage. Hell I have a hard enough time just figuring out WHY a system works the way it does most times =)

[Kool Kat]

those are good insights i had not realized before.

Those are the type of hints and 'real world' lessons I wish could be put together in a helpers or new players guide. I play a lot of games. A LOT. There are very few I have played enough to get into the meat and bones of HOW to use the system to my best advantage. Hell I have a hard enough time just figuring out WHY a system works the way it does most times =)

Are you referencing this type of "helpers" or "new players" guide?  

I posted and shared the following information a while ago...

Panzer Campaigns - Tactics

Here are some hints about game play that may help you enjoy your games more and perhaps enable you to do better against your opponents as well.

Don’t Attack In Travel-Mode
There are several penalties associated with units in Travel Mode, both having to do with their ability to defend as well as attack. In general, you should only use Travel-Mode to advance on the enemy position while using Road Movement, but then change to Deployed mode as soon as you encounter the enemy.

Disrupt Your Attackers
Disrupted units not only fire at a disadvantage, but they are also prohibited from assault attacking. The biggest effect you can have on an attacker is to disrupt his units. That will prevent him from assaulting your defensive positions and allow you to withstand the attack much better. You should consider the greatest value your artillery has against attacking armor is to disrupt the armor, not necessarily eliminate it. In this way, you can compel the attackers to break off the attack even though they still have strength.

Watch Out For the Combined Arms Penalty
Normally, any Combined Arms Penalty is reported to you when you add units to an assault attack. However, if Fog-of-War is in effect, then you will not be told when this penalty is in effect. So be careful. If you have vehicles assault attacking into non-Clear terrain against enemy infantry, make sure you have committed sufficient supporting infantry to protect your attacking vehicles.

Make Sure You Use Your Artillery
It may seem like an obvious fact, but firing your artillery into enemy positions is something you should consider as the first step in an attack. Often, when you are advancing on an enemy position, it is easy to forget that you have artillery available to support the attack and you try to just "blitz" the defending position. Think of your artillery first, not last, in your turn.

Attack Systematically
This has to do with the tempo of your attack. It’s easy to get excited about taking an enemy position and lose track of the fact that you are taking excessive casualties in the attack. Take your time. Plan your attack. Use your artillery and air support. Coordinate your efforts and you will end up losing much less that if you just attack piecemeal.

Watch Your Unit’s Battle Fatigue Levels
The fastest way to make a fighting unit ineffective is to push its Fatigue level to the point that it will take a long time to recover. When a unit takes losses from combat it also accumulates Fatigue Points. You'll see this as the fatigue level values change in color from green in the Low range, to yellow for Medium and to orange for High Fatigue. Units that move or fire have no chance of recovering from the effects of Fatigue.

Managing Your Units
Rotate your units to rest the heaviest engaged before they become too Fatigued. As a unit’s fatigue level approaches the top of the Medium Fatigue range, consider pulling it out of the fight for a rest. Units in the High Fatigue range will not stand up in battle and could quickly Disrupt and then become Broken causing an crisis in your lines.

Aiding your Unit’s Recovery from Disruption (and Broken)Status
As carefully as you may watch Fatigue or manage your units, some will still Disrupt as a result of combat and if they continue to be fired upon they may become Broken. When this occurs, there are a number of things you can do that will assist in the successful recovery of these units. Keep HQ's within range of their parent HQ's thereby increasing their chance to remain "in Command". The closer a unit is to its HQ the better the chance of recovery. As recovery is based on current unit Morale and factors such as amount of Fatigue, place units that are out of action in locations where they will not be fired upon, so as to lower their Fatigue.

Select Save Movement Points

Allows units to move / fire. Units in travel mode can exit travel mode. Artillery can unlimber. You can move units to the full extend of their movement allowance knowing you have enough Movement Points to perform needed operations at the end of units' movement.

Fixed units can dig in
Improves defensive positions prior to a unit's release.

View Victory Dialog for enemy Intel
Victory conditions are always calculated relative to that side resulting in a victory level for that side. If the enemy starts first and is the First Side, you are able to view his losses.

Combine/Breakdown
Holding down the alt key when selecting this option will cause all possible units in the current hex to be Combined regardless of which units you have selected.

[Mr Grumpy]

Steelwhip I have been through the same learning curve that you are experiencing, the game system has many layers and each time you believe that you have covered everything the game has to offer you discover yet another layer!!

I found that the best way to learn how to use the system to your best advantage is 1) Play players who are better than yourself and you can learn a lot from just watching your opponents reply's even with FOW on 2) after playing a scenario when your opponent has kicked your butt change sides and see how he plays your former side, often you end up losing again but by watching your opponents tactics you will learn what tactics you should have used 3) hopefully your more experienced opponent will be helpful in explaining how certain rules work and which are the best tactics to use, I was very lucky to link up with players like Volcano Man and Ricky B who were always happy to help me better explain the in's and out of the system.

[Steelwhip]

KoolKat-yeah most of those I have managed to dig up on my own through playing....although I usually dont regard the combined arms penalty too much...as I usually only will assault Disrupted or Broken units I dont think ive ever really been hurt by it. And yup..always use arty..seem to manage to Disrupt units easier with arty so like to hit units im going to assault with arty before hand. in most scenarios I dont worry to much about fatigue-unless it gets really high...175+ then ill pull them out of the line. I would say I only pay attention to fatigue really hard is if the scenario covers 3 or more days. Had no idea that fixed units could dig in.....

Mr Grumpy-youve always been a source of good advice and I do try and pay attention to when you give advice and answer questions. I tend to be real gun shy about playing people I dont know. its a psychological thing. no reason to it...but i find it real hard to play people blind over the net.. But good advice regardless of my trepidation.

[Mr Grumpy]

  in most scenarios I dont worry to much about fatigue-unless it gets really high...175+ then ill pull them out of the line. I would say I only pay attention to fatigue really hard is if the scenario covers 3 or more days. Had no idea that fixed units could dig in.....



Mr Grumpy-youve always been a source of good advice and I do try and pay attention to when you give advice and answer questions. I tend to be real gun shy about playing people I dont know. its a psychological thing. no reason to it...but i find it real hard to play people blind over the net.. But good advice regardless of my trepidation.

In small scenarios you can ignore fatigue levels to some extent, although I have failed to win a number of smaller games because in the last couple of turns I didn't have enough fresh troops to take that vital VP hex by assault. In larger scenarios fatigue management is a game within a game and failure to keep levels below 150 and rotate units in and out of the front line can have more effect on the final result than the tactics used, I see lots of players ignoring the night fatigue effects and driving their forces 24/7 until they are totally combat ineffective, after all these years I still feel the desire to push on and on even though i know it is the wrong thing to do!

Obviously you need to play with whoever you feel comfortable with, but my experience was that I had to play multiple opponents to see all the clever tactics that the devious human mind can devise when playing complex games such as these, I found it a fascinating journey and the learning curve very enjoyable.

[Kool Kat]

KoolKat-yeah most of those I have managed to dig up on my own through playing....although I usually dont regard the combined arms penalty too much...as I usually only will assault Disrupted or Broken units I dont think ive ever really been hurt by it. And yup..always use arty..seem to manage to Disrupt units easier with arty so like to hit units im going to assault with arty before hand.  in most scenarios I dont worry to much about fatigue-unless it gets really high...175+ then ill pull them out of the line. I would say I only pay attention to fatigue really hard is if the scenario covers 3 or more days. Had no idea that fixed units could dig in.....

I also dug up my post from about 1 year ago on PzC "tips and tactics." Here it is!

After a year of playing this superb and classic game series... it's time to share some tips and tactics again!  

PzC Tips & Tactics - In no order.

1. Don't allow your units to be surrounded and cutoff from supply. Isolated units will eventually Disrupt and are eliminated.

2. Use Travel mode when your units are traveling behind the lines or you need them to move a set distance - then deploy at the end of their movement. Never leave them in T-mode near the front lines. Always screen units in T-mode with deployed units. IF you must leave a unit in T-mode in a stack near the front lines, always move a deployed unit to the "top" of the stack so your opponent cannot "see-at-glance" that an enemy unit was left in T-mode. Same goes for "shielding" HQ units in a stack - move a non-HQ deployed unit to the "top" of the stack.

3. Disperse ALL enemy units in a stack before Assaulting them. It increases the chances of a successful assault.

4. Use recon and motorized units to provide flank protection and to make surgical thrusts behind enemy lines as needed.

5. Never use HQ units as defending units in your front lines. These units cannot attack and do not have ZOCs. In a recent PzC game, my German opponent used a HQ unit in such a manner and I was able to surge past the enemy HQ and was able to move many of my armor and motorized units into his back field!

6. Use recon air assets to search for suspected enemy HQs, artillery, and units in T-mode behind enemy lines. You can then follow-up with any revealed enemy units with either bomber assets or (if in range), some well-placed artillery bombardments.

7. Keep your formations intact. Keep battalions of the same regiment together (either stacked or within 1-2 hexes of each other) so you do not suffer a mixed formation penalty (using other units) when attacking / assaulting the enemy.

8. Keep HQs within supply / command range of their attached units so your units do not suffer "out of supply" penalties - e.g. attack at half strength.

9. Practice good morale and fatigue management of your units - especially in the longer turn scenarios. Units that suffer yellow or red fatigue levels will have their morale reduced. This will result in combat ineffectiveness by increasing the chances of Disruption and having your units Broken. Cycle out fatigued units and have them rest (do nothing) behind your lines for several turns. Fatigue increases during night movement / combat so avoid these activities (if possible) during night turns. Also, units reduce more fatigue during night turns - again if they do nothing. I recently played a German opponent in an El Alamein '42 scenario. He aggressively attacked my British defense force nearly across the entire map and non-stop (day and night cycles). By not effectively managing his German and Italian unit fatigue / morale levels, his force rapidly lost combat readiness and cohesion. At the approximately halfway mark of our game, I was able to mount a counter offense and rolled up his right flank!     

10. Cycle through every unit / every turn to ensure you do not overlook them and make sure you consciously do "something" with each of your units - Attack, defend, use as a reserve, etc.

11. It's best to stack armor with assaulting infantry and not have armor assault alone.

12. Check the hard / soft target ranges of your units. Some infantry MG's has a 2 range against soft targets and some armor has a 2 range against hard targets. If you are fortunate to have some superb AT assets (e.g 88's), check their attack value + range. You may be surprised how far these units can project their firepower and against both soft and hard targets!

13. Use infantry units (when possible) to "dig in" as these units will build IPs and Trenches faster then armor units. Use engineers to "dig in" as these units have a better percentage change of successfully digging per turn. Note - artillery units can "dig in" too, but seem to do better with constructing IPs then Trenches. HQ units cannot "dig in."

14. Use your Artillery dialogue box so you don't miss using your artillery assets. It's usually best to bombard enemy positions before the ground pounders go in.

15. Save your game turn often. It's a good practice to save periodically during your move / combat phases so you will not lose any moves if you experience a SW crash, leave your PC unattended, curious kids or pets come to visit, etc. I once had a cat that loved to jump up on the desk and lie across my PC keyboard!

16. Try to move dispersed units in the front lines behind deployed units so they may recover from disruption and cannot be attacked / assaulted by enemy ground units.

17. Ensure you understand any engineer unit and their capabilities that are part of your OOB. Note on the unit description if the engineer unit has a bridge. For example, in Kharkov 42, the Russian has engineer sapper units that do NOT have a bridge and some that do! You don't want to move an engineer unit adjacent to a river only to find out that it does not have a bridge!  

18. Enjoy and have fun! I "discovered" the superb PzC series about a year ago and I have never looked back at CS or most other PC games. The PzC series is "elegant simplicity" with the right mix of grognard features. I get to re-live my early war gaming years of pushing around stacks of cardboard counters on a paper map with the familiar NATO symbols - now digitized for the PC screen. Often, I will conduct my turns early in the AM with a hot cup of coffee and a quiet house. Many times I will sit down to conduct my turns and when I look up - a hour or more has passed. Enjoyable times!