CMRT Pz.IV spotting insanity

[Volksgrenadier]

  CMRT spotting.jpg (Size: 119.77 KB / Downloads: 22)

The PzIV moved to that waypoint (savefiles available).

I would not lose a word, if a grey line suddenly was a blue line or vice versa, which sometimes happens, but from fully blocked LOS and being indicated as safe to dancing naked in the sun is a bit too much for any useful planning.

Has anyone else experienced such catastrophic inconsistencies of the LOS tool?


Btw: that a T34/85 was able to knock out a Pz.IV @2000 m with the very first shot in that game is not even worth mentioning if such problems exist; or that a Company HQ PzIV stationary in overview since the beginning was not able to spot laterally moving T34s with tank riders on them @1600 m although the LOS tool shows clear LOS at the turrets and the in game graphics shows much more.

I thought the admitted Pz.IV "problems" were corrected a long time ago?

I really want to like CMRT but it is becoming a burden quickly.

[Das Morbo]

Hi!

That problem with the LOS-tool happens from tiime to time.

My experinece is that it happens in 'sticky' situations where the LOS is hard to compute. Like in your example, there is a tree near by, but the turret may look by it. City areas and woods, with many terrain objects tend to produce these errors.
That seems to be hard to compute for the game engine.

Workaround:
I developed a 'feel' for these situations over many hours played. So when I am in doubt about what the LOS-tool tells me, I cancel the movement-order and place it again.
This often helps and keeps consequences to a minimum.




The spotting issues are a different story. Spotting is a real weak spot of the Combat Mission-Series.
Can't help there, but I heard from somebody else here on the forum that they are the worst with CMRT and that other titels are less affected. Let's hope for Patches. ;)


Best regards
Morbo

[A Canadian Cat]

My experinece is that it happens in 'sticky' situations where the LOS is hard to compute. Like in your example, there is a tree near by, but the turret may look by it. City areas and woods, with many terrain objects tend to produce these errors.
That seems to be hard to compute for the game engine.

Workaround:
I developed a 'feel' for these situations over many hours played. So when I am in doubt about what the LOS-tool tells me, I cancel the movement-order and place it again.
This often helps and keeps consequences to a minimum.

An excellent workaround - the issue is that the LOS tool is a from the way point to the ground at the centre of the target location.  But once the moving vehicle is there and the enemy vehicles move around they calculate their LOS and LOF from where they actually are.  Honestly for better or worse the LOS tool give you a feel for what you can see but your gut instinct will get better.  But either way your enemy will be trying to ruin your day and you will lose even when you are careful.  Remember your enemy is trying to KO your stuff so no amount of perfect play on your part is going to prevent that.

The spotting issues are a different story. Spotting is a real weak spot of the Combat Mission-Series.
Can't help there, but I heard from somebody else here on the forum that they are the worst with CMRT and that other titels are less affected. Let's hope for Patches. ;)

Sigh.  That is certainly *not* true.  CMRT is using the same engine as all the others (a few bug fixes ahead of CMBN annd CMFI and a few behind CMBS - non of which I am aware of that will make even trivial differences wrt spotting - unless the hull down spotting bug is one of them but that only applies to a specific situation).  The bottom line is "spotting that is not perfect" is the intended behaviour of the game and is what it is.

[Volksgrenadier]

I developed a 'feel' for these situations over many hours played. So when I am in doubt about what the LOS-tool tells me, I cancel the movement-order and place it again.

Das Morbo,

this is what I do, too. I had readjusted that waypoint several times, because there was LOS in other directions and to be on the safe side I searched as long as I had found a secure spot with 180° fully blocked LOS.

An excellent workaround - the issue is that the LOS tool is a from the way point to the ground at the centre of the target location.  But once the moving vehicle is there and the enemy vehicles move around they calculate their LOS and LOF from where they actually are.

Canadian Cat,

your explanation does not explain that here the Pz. IV in the final location suddenly has a perfect blue line to the whole area's GROUND - and not to the turrets only.

[raz_atoth]

I'm under the impression the los tool uses the ground level to determine if another square on the map is visible or not. In effect, this means that that due to the height difference between the tank's commander position and the ground the tank might spot (or be spotted from) a certain point although the los tool says otherwise.

[Das Morbo]

Sigh.  That is certainly *not* true.  CMRT is using the same engine as all the others (a few bug fixes ahead of CMBN annd CMFI and a few behind CMBS - non of which I am aware of that will make even trivial differences wrt spotting - unless the hull down spotting bug is one of them but that only applies to a specific situation).  The bottom line is "spotting that is not perfect" is the intended behaviour of the game and is what it is.

Despite all you say, I can't ignore these moments that I have very frequently and which deny common sense:

These guys - unsupressed but tired, veteran Flamethrower-team which sits there for 3 minutes ...


has not the slightes clue there is a Stug III rummaging about 50 yards away.

Must be Gunner's mate 1st Class Phillip A**hole and his cousins from Space Balls who got a new job on the Eastern Front.

[A Canadian Cat]

your explanation does not explain that here the Pz. IV in the final location suddenly has a perfect blue line to the whole area's GROUND - and not to the turrets only.

Ah, I misread your post.  I have no explanation that does not seem correct.

I'm under the impression the los tool uses the ground level to determine if another square on the map is visible or not. In effect, this means that that due to the height difference between the tank's commander position and the ground the tank might spot (or be spotted from) a certain point although the los tool says otherwise.

My understanding is that the target line is taken to be from the height of the unit at the present time.  Which is why if an infantry team is prone your target line from a way point next to a wall will show no LOS but once your guys get there and they kneel next to the wall they can see over it.

So, that issue with the PzIV actually sounds like a defect to me.  If you still have saves showing that the target tool shows no LOS from a location but once the vehicle gets there the same target tool shows good LOS I would log that as a defect.  At least to see what the explanation was because I do not thing that would be correct.

[A Canadian Cat]

Despite all you say, I can't ignore these moments that I have very frequently and which deny common sense:

Right, I understand.  And some of these are odd I agree. 

Let me make myself more clear -

I am not saying that I expect everyone to be happy with every event,
I am not saying that the game is perfect,
I am not saying that these close range encounters are always correct. 

What I am saying is that CMRT is *no* different from the other games, 
I am saying that BFC does not consider these to be a high priority (they know that close encounters are a problem and they have made changes and continue to consider more),
I am saying that I know of no logged defects in the queue to be fixed that would change any of this.

All I am trying to do is point out that expectations that a coming patch will suddenly make all these concerns go away is just not reasonable.  Both from the point of view that people's expectations are not inline with how the game is designed to operate and from the point of view that something is in the works right now to fix all ills.  As sad as that might make you it just is what it is.  I am sure changes will be made over time to make some of these close encounters better.  I honestly do not know what the schedule for that might be.

[raz_atoth]

If you point the LOS tool on the ground (and not an enemy unit), then it's tracking the LOS to the ground. Since you are pointing the LOS tool inside a wheat field in the screenshot you have taken, and it's not possible for your unit to see what is lying on the ground inside the wheat, the LOS tool shows the LOS as blocked. That's correct.

From a post by Moon in this thread: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/1...nt/?page=1  [second post]

So, i think it's definitely possible for a unit to not be able to spot the ground when using the los tool, but still spot an AFV.

[A Canadian Cat]

Exactly which is what I thought was happening. But @Volksgrenadier said that from the way point before the move the LOS tool said no visibility but once the tank got there it said good visibility - to the same target location. So from the same location two different answers. That's the part that sounds off to me.