Tunisia'43 1.02: The balancing effects of the 25% reduction of Hard Attack Values

[Bayes]

The last Tunisia'43 patch introduces a 25% reduction in raw Hard Attack values for tanks and ATs.

Due to the non-linear effects of direct hard attacks, a flat 25% reduction of raw Hard Attack value translates into a 44% reduction when the Hard Attack value is less than the Defense value, and translates into a 13% reduction when the Hard Attack value is above the Defense Value. This seems to shift the relative performance of tanks. E.g., before, the kill ratio of Tiger vs Sherman was 2:1 (only taking Hard Attack and Defense into account), but now it has become almost 3:1. For Pz-III(lg) vs Valentine, the old kill ratio was 3:1, which now has become 4.5:1. (Assuming that the Hard Attack of Valentine was 6 before the reduction).

Any thoughts on these changes in relative performance of tanks? Which kill ratios are the most realistic ones?

[Strela]

The last Tunisia'43 patch introduces a 25% reduction in raw Hard Attack values for tanks and ATs.

Due to the non-linear effects of direct hard attacks, a flat 25% reduction of raw Hard Attack value translates into a 44% reduction when the Hard Attack value is less than the Defense value, and translates into a 13% reduction when the Hard Attack value is above the Defense Value. This seems to shift the relative performance of tanks. E.g., before, the kill ratio of Tiger vs Sherman was 2:1 (only taking Hard Attack and Defense into account), but now it has become almost 3:1. For Pz-III(lg) vs Valentine, the old kill ratio was 3:1, which now has become 4.5:1. (Assuming that the Hard Attack of Valentine was 6 before the reduction).

Any thoughts on these changes in relative performance of tanks? Which kill ratios are the most realistic ones?

Hi Bayes,

As one of the designers with a knowledge of the values that are used in Panzer Campaigns, I can confirm there was a decision to standardize across the series using the Mcnamara values that Ed Williams had used in his Alt scenarios. When JTS reviewed some of the original values we found some discrepancies regarding HA values that actually overstated them based on range and a couple of other factors. The HA values were dropped as you mention but other factors such as the range modifier in the PDT file were also adjusted (from 3 down to 1.5) which had a bearing also.

You have to understand that there are a huge number of parameters that go into combat result calculation and though your comparison is valid, it only covers part of the variables involved. A lot of testing was done after the HA values were changed and the designer community are comfortable that nothing has substantially changed from the base values you saw previously.

I expect you will see these values in all games going forward and that Ed will probably retrofit them into his Alt scenarios as he releases updates.

Hopefully this will give you some insight on why the changes were made.

Finally, as mentioned in the design notes etc, editors are included in all JTS games so you can change any values you disagree with. Its another value add in a great series of games.

David

[Bayes]

Thanks a lot for the thorough reply Strela. I really appreciate the elegant and open design of the system. Look forward to continue trying out the new values in my ongoing Tunisia'43 campaign, and hopefully my Valentines still have sufficient punch :-).

Bayes

The last Tunisia'43 patch introduces a 25% reduction in raw Hard Attack values for tanks and ATs.

Due to the non-linear effects of direct hard attacks, a flat 25% reduction of raw Hard Attack value translates into a 44% reduction when the Hard Attack value is less than the Defense value, and translates into a 13% reduction when the Hard Attack value is above the Defense Value. This seems to shift the relative performance of tanks. E.g., before, the kill ratio of Tiger vs Sherman was 2:1 (only taking Hard Attack and Defense into account), but now it has become almost 3:1. For Pz-III(lg) vs Valentine, the old kill ratio was 3:1, which now has become 4.5:1. (Assuming that the Hard Attack of Valentine was 6 before the reduction).

Any thoughts on these changes in relative performance of tanks? Which kill ratios are the most realistic ones?

Hi Bayes,

As one of the designers with a knowledge of the values that are used in Panzer Campaigns, I can confirm there was a decision to standardize across the series using the Mcnamara values that Ed Williams had used in his Alt scenarios. When JTS reviewed some of the original values we found some discrepancies regarding HA values that actually overstated them based on range and a couple of other factors. The HA values were dropped as you mention but other factors such as the range modifier in the PDT file were also adjusted (from 3 down to 1.5) which had a bearing also.

You have to understand that there are a huge number of parameters that go into combat result calculation and though your comparison is valid, it only covers part of the variables involved. A lot of testing was done after the HA values were changed and the designer community are comfortable that nothing has substantially changed from the base values you saw previously.

I expect you will see these values in all games going forward and that Ed will probably retrofit them into his Alt scenarios as he releases updates.

Hopefully this will give you some insight on why the changes were made.

Finally, as mentioned in the design notes etc, editors are included in all JTS games so you can change any values you disagree with. Its another value add in a great series of games.

David

[Volcano Man]

The reduction in values is due to a recalculation John did and the adjustment of the range fire modifier. In the past, the range modifier was 3, meaning that any direct fire at 2 hexes or more was at 1/3 strength. The Alt values (which are used in Tunisia '43) were originally calculated so that the ranged fire at 2 hexes would be high enough to be effective, but this always resulted in a situation where fire at adjacent hexes was too devastating, a whole tank battalion could be wiped out entirely (or rendered combat ineffective) in three shots in some extreme cases, which is a bit drastic as it comes down to "whoever fires first".

However, John has now enacted a floating point value for ranged fire, so the standard value is now 1.5, which provides a great deal of effectiveness at long range, more so than before with higher hard attack factors even. Essentially the ranged fire is more effective now, but the point blank adjacent fire is now reduced to a more reasonable level. If I didn't agree with the change then I would not have gone along with it in the Alt 3.2 values; I think the change is a good one since I never really liked how deadly the 1 hex hard vs. hard came out, (again) all because I was trying to dance around a whole number PDT value which is no longer a problem. Besides, I believe the historical loss ratio of Shermans to Panther/Tigers (or the ratio required to kill one in an engagement) was something like 5 or 6:1, so if anything this is an improvement in that respects, which I recall was indeed another reason for the change because there were complaints that the Tiger/Panther was too brittle in comparison to the 76 Sherman.

Naturally it goes without saying that not everyone will ever be satisfied so feel free to do what you think is right in a mod of your own, but hopefully that helps answer the reason "why".

[Bayes]

Thanks Volcano Man -

I am also playing the Tobruk campaign with the new values and they give a very historic feel there too imo. BTW. when one takes quality into account, e.g, A vs D, 3:1 turns into 4.5:1. Add shots at range 2 and 3, and we are pretty close to 5:1 - 6:1 for
Tiger vs Sherman.

Bayes

The reduction in values is due to a recalculation John did and the adjustment of the range fire modifier. In the past, the range modifier was 3, meaning that any direct fire at 2 hexes or more was at 1/3 strength. The Alt values (which are used in Tunisia '43) were originally calculated so that the ranged fire at 2 hexes would be high enough to be effective, but this alwtays resulted in a situation where fire at adjacent hexes was too devastating, a whole tank battalion could be wiped out entirely (or rendered combat ineffective) in three shots in some extreme cases,
which is a bit drastic as it comes down to "whoever fires first".

However, John has now enacted a floating point value for ranged fire, so the standard value is now 1.5, which provides a great deal of effectiveness at long range, more so than before with higher hard attack factors even. Essentially the ranged fire is more effective now, but the point blank adjacent fire is now reduced to a more reasonable level. If I didn't agree with the change then I would not have gone along with it in the Alt 3.2 values; I think the change is a good one since I never really liked how deadly the 1 hex hard vs. hard came out, (again) all because I was trying to dance around a whole number PDT value which is no longer a problem. Besides, I believe the historical loss ratio of Shermans to Panther/Tigers (or the ratio required to kill one in an engagement) was something like 5 or 6:1, so if anything this is an improvement in that respects, which I recall was indeed another reason for the change because there were complaints that the Tiger/Panther was too brittle in comparison to the 76 Sherman.

Naturally it goes without saying that not everyone will ever be satisfied so feel free to do what you think is right in a mod of your own, but hopefully that helps answer the reason "why".