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Units Breakdown
02-17-2012, 08:33 AM,
#11
RE: Units Breakdown
I think giving the players the ability to break a unit down below platoon level is a bad idea.
If you want to play with squads play Squad Battles? Eek
Or design a scenario that has lower strength units (squad size).

Giving players the "option" to break down into smaller sizes could lead to more "gamey" play than already exists. Tempted

Yes! Once again I will defend scale. Platoon combat is platoon combat. Scale

For many of the reasons listed above, by others, I can see a slippery slope into compromising the game engine and how the game is played.

Believe me, there are already enough "house rules" governing "gamey" play. Breaking down units below their scaled level could only compound the problems with the game.

Unit breakdown because a player let some transports get shot up seems more a player problem than a game problem? Help2

Cheers3

HSL
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02-17-2012, 09:10 AM, (This post was last modified: 02-17-2012, 09:43 AM by Skryabin.)
#12
RE: Units Breakdown
(02-17-2012, 08:33 AM)Herr Straßen Läufer Wrote: Unit breakdown because a player let some transports get shot up seems more a player problem than a game problem? Help2
If a player wants to move two guns by two healthy tracks, but he can not do that bacause there are two more guns in the same hex, isn't it sounds strange? What kind of player problem is that? :complain:

Well, about spliting infantry and armor I am not too sure: platoon size has its beauty, but artillery and transports...

Another example. In the game I am playing right now there are three Engener platoons 6 and 5 SP. The map is big and has a lot of bridges to blow. And there are a plenty of free tracks, but the biggest SP value is 4. Having that Split/Recombine option I would regrup my transports and move those 5SP Eng platoons. The question is not wether it is a player or a game problem. This option would give a player (Commander) more strategic freedom and from there - more fun.

Just my oppinion Hide4

cheers

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02-17-2012, 11:05 AM,
#13
RE: Units Breakdown
Some valid arguments presented for the yeah and nay of splitting units. However I find it interesting that in the JTCS 1.04 update the splitting has already taken place...... but it was doubled!

To transport units, it use to be a one to one function in the 1.02 system. Now in 1.04 system its 1 SP transport to 2SP of infantry. Guns still remained the same probably because of the thought for ammo and crews to tag along loaded.

My point is why the change at all? Simple, gamers were throwing trucks away too much so the rule was changed because too many were complaining about trucks being thrown away by opponents and not having to pay for it in VP's 1 vs 3.

In my opinion trucks/transports should be worth 10 times what they are now in the game. Yes 30VP's/SP! For a mechanized army transports are absolutely critical. They are the heart of mechanization! Without them you don't move very far and that can be bad in WWII and real bad today!

However I still see a need to have the ability to split combat units. Especially in trying to cover frontage. The system is already gamey and splitting units would not make it any worse. In fact tactically it would probably get a lot more interesting.

As for the artillery function, well lets just say I don't want to go there.

Cheers all!

ItB:smoke2:

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02-17-2012, 08:38 PM,
#14
RE: Units Breakdown
Before reading, note: No voice was raised. No anger displayed. No heavy typing on the keys. I appreciate all opinions and thoughts. I just have my own that I will express. Farmer

Let's look at the gamey side?
As ItB pointed out, players were going crazy over Ht's and trucks having their point values raised. (I am with Ivan, too, in that transport values should be ten times higher. It would bring truck and HT use back toward reality.)
Some of these same players were one's who used HT's and trucks to roam into the enemy rear areas to create havoc. "Let's go you two crewmen, we'll see what question marks can be seen and how many HQ's and artillery we can overrun" kinda player.
"The game allows it, so I am going to do it, player." Warrior2

Now you want to give them the ability to split into single trucks and Ht's? The "draw fire" and "damn the point loss" player will have a field day, eh?

Specifically for Sky.
If you let your transports get hit by enemy fire and you cannot load your guns? Sorry, too bad. The player who does that simply did something wrong many turns in advance of the situation actually happening? Crystal Ball

As for splitting the engineers to build or destroy bridges? Yikes! Help5
That again is a scenario designer, or more a player, problem in how they plan for, and/or play the game.
Would I like to see that bridges can be destroyed? Sure! Do I want a player to have the capability to destroy every bridge on the map every time they play a game? Uh ... no! (Unless that was what the scenario designer wanted.)
Was every bridge on every battlefield destroyed during a tactical operation? Hardly!

I'm really against the idea of splitting (because someone wants to) for the fact that it can become very "gamey" ... and very "unhistorical" (whatever that means in a computer game) ... and because (wait for it) of scale.

And, I do not believe that a player should be given something that lets them do everything they want because they can. Some scenario designers put in situations that make a player think and react in certain ways.
What becomes of planning, tactical adjustments, "realism"?

All this because a player wants to blow every bridge or did not move his guns sooner than he should have?

Adding splitting of units could be like opening Pandora's Box? You will not know all the ramifications until after it is done.
Should it be done? Gosh, I hope not. Helmet Rolleyes

Cheers6

HSL
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02-17-2012, 10:41 PM,
#15
RE: Units Breakdown
I do believe this game was designed as a platoon size game to be run at company level.......I do believe the combat mission games were designed for smaller units.....not sure I would be a fan of combining the two........actually I have been known to order trucks from another sector to go and pickup those guns that lost their transport :-)

VE
"The secret to success is not just doing the things you enjoy but rather enjoying everything that you do."
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02-18-2012, 04:03 AM,
#16
RE: Units Breakdown
(02-17-2012, 10:41 PM)Von Earlmann Wrote: I do believe this game was designed as a platoon size game to be run at company level.......I do believe the combat mission games were designed for smaller units.....not sure I would be a fan of combining the two........actually I have been known to order trucks from another sector to go and pickup those guns that lost their transport :-)

VE

+1

Jason Petho
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02-18-2012, 05:02 AM,
#17
RE: Units Breakdown
I'm with Earl and Jason!
Scale! Cigar

:drink:

HSL
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02-18-2012, 05:05 AM,
#18
RE: Units Breakdown
Quote:Before reading, note: No voice was raised. No anger displayed. No heavy typing on the keys. I appreciate all opinions and thoughts. I just have my own that I will express. Farmer
Ed, if I display anger with this funny image :complain: , please do not take it sireously, lol. This is the way I express my oppinion. And of course I appreciate yours - you are a gold veteran of this club an I am just a begginer :respect2:

Yes it will add opportunities for gamy play - more surrounding and recon with transports? But I thought this problem was resolved some time ago with ROE. What differece will it make having some more 1SP transort units? There are rules. If people whant to follow them, they'll use transports only for transportiatin.

But you are right about "pandora's box" :
Quote:Adding splitting of units could be like opening Pandora's Box? You will not know all the ramifications until after it is done.
Should it be done? Gosh, I hope not. Helmet Rolleyes
There is no other way to learn if it is going to work unles it is done. Should it be done? I think it would be cool to try. Particullary for transports.

Quote:Von Earlmann Wrote: actually I have been known to order trucks from another sector to go and pickup those guns that lost their transport :-)
Good idea if you have the other trucks Helmet Rolleyes All this arise from me playing Russians in Red Steel at Fedorovka were I had only one AT 4SP unit. To me (I may be wrong) the meaning of AT guns is mobility. If it is spotted - it is dead. Keep the tracks in another hex? But it will be impossible to come, load and get away during one turn. Stay there loaded? Just suiside. Maybe I am missing something, but still I think it would be nice to load at least two guns and relocate them. If not splitting what else could it be? Just abonding other two? Maybe. So this unit will become 2SP... That's an option too.
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02-18-2012, 05:35 AM,
#19
RE: Units Breakdown
Hello Dmitriy,
I do understand your humor and the smilie icon you used. Thank you2

I do not see myself as gold. I just see myself as any other member of the club. Or, maybe I am aluminum, the foil variety? TEEHEE

I've used the AT gun in Red Steel a number of ways. Once was quite funny. My opponent set his opt fire for hard targets only. He did not want his German guns to waste fire on Russian HQ's. I ran the AT gun loaded trough the town and captured the victory hexes where his tanks stayed silently adjacent. Angel
That At gun (in Red Steel) can be used to more effect firing at ambush that may force a tank or two to retreat and/or disrupt. With all the Russian armor massed to inflict the real damage, I cannot even see the AT gun being secondary or tertiary in importance.
I use it behind the line or on a flank defending a victory hex. Farmer

I would not even think to make changes for it. Or, for that matter, for any AT gun or artillery piece.

Just my opinion. And, I accept your opinion but reject your premise. It's not worth the effort to make that kind of change to the game. Scale

Buds

HSL
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02-18-2012, 05:58 AM,
#20
RE: Units Breakdown
(02-18-2012, 05:35 AM)Herr Straßen Läufer Wrote: I've used the AT gun in Red Steel a number of ways. Once was quite funny. My opponent set his opt fire for hard targets only. He did not want his German guns to waste fire on Russian HQ's. I ran the AT gun loaded trough the town and captured the victory hexes where his tanks stayed silently adjacent. Angel
That was smart! You see, that's what I was saying: to me you wll always be a gold one Fireworks

cheers

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