Any consensus on F 14?

[Volcano Man]

Yes, you are right. The Allies have a very tough situation because they have to recognize if and when to fall back and, most importantly, where to send reinforcements. As you say, the Germans have to find the weak point and keep pushing in and around it. The tough part about it is that you have to think in advance.

In PzC you can usually get away with reacting to the situation on the fly because of the mobility of your mechanized formations, but in FWWC you have to plan in advance since it takes time to put it in motion, and once in motion it is difficult to reverse (which is why the better planner has a better chance of winning too). I personally have spent several F14 scenarios where I sent a particular unit one direction, then counter marched it back the other way, and then sent it back the other way and I ended up committing it no where. That sounds like real WW1 generalship! ;)

[Nitram Draw]

I've played a few games to 80 + turns and I think the Allies have the advantage. The lack of real exploitation ability by any units, the lack of VP's near the front and the generally equaly losses after 30 turns or so make it difficult for the Germans to win. The Allies can basically retreat from the start without engaging in many places and from a solid line without giving up enough VP to lose. It is extremely difficult to break a line once it is formed with some depth in this game.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the game, I just think the Allies will win the majority of the GC games.

[Volcano Man]

Right, there is no real exploitation capability other than the cavalry corps, but those have to be committed in the correct place at just the right time so as not to push into and then find themselves in a place they cannot hold against forces that are closing a breach. This means that it is quite tricky to be a "good" cavalry commander.

Interestingly enough, there seem to be two points of view: one point of view is that the Allies have a tough go because they have to react to the Germans in the correct place at the right time, and the other point of view is that the Allies have it easier because they can fall back and try to hold off the Germans from all the VP hexes of value.

So, to develop the discussion even further, I would say that the encouraged strategy is for the Allies to fall back immediately and then solidify north of the extremely valuable objectives with an eye towards attacking the German flank. Now whether or not the Allies can hold off the Germans from the valuable objectives for over 150 turns depends on the skill of both sides. Playing through the Charleroi scenario, I can hold off the Germans to the point where practically everything is apart, at which point - if it were a campaign - I know that I would have to take flight (when the scenario ends). The tricky point is: at what point are the Allies going to keep falling back under pressure and at what point are they going to dig in their heels for that one great battle? And at what point are they able to rest?

Historically that one great battle happened along the Marne, as the Allies fell back to the point that they could flank around to the west with 6e Armee. It F14, that great battle could happen in the same place, but only if the Allied Powers voluntarily fall back to that point. The question is, why would they do that voluntarily? The answer: for the same reason that it was historically the case; the Allies were looking for a point where they could have all their forces on line and hold a defensive line. In actuality, the Allied Powers had several such places marked out as they fall back, it wasn't as if they fell back from day one with their eyes fixed on the Marne area as the showdown point. One by one, Joffre decided that once the Allies reached the planned defensive line, they should instead fall back again because the situation was not yet completely favorable (the 6e Armee wasn't fully formed in the west for one thing). By the time the front line was reaching the Marne area, it was decided that it was a great point to defend and the pieces were in place to counter attack on the flank.

In game terms this means that as the Allied commander, you probably should fall back to draw the Germans and spread them out, then attempt that one great flanking battle somewhere, be it the Marne area or Aisne, the location depends on progress of events after the first turn. Of course nothing is forcing you to fall back at all, but doing so will only help your chances because it allows you to maintain completely control of the situation. It is only when you fully commit to battle that you risk losing control of the situation, that is, by getting units so committed to battle that they cannot break contact so you end up pushing more units to save units that are probably too far gone, and the next thing you know you have lost the ability to influence the outcome of the campaign other than trying to hold everywhere to the last man. Because of this, it does seem that you have one shot at a big battle, and the Allies benefit if they can put that "big battle" off until as close to the end of the campaign as possible (so they don't have to worry about the consequences of their entire army falling apart). If the Allies fight the "great battle" too early then you risk losing a great deal of your army and giving up a lot of VPs to losses. So, given that the Battle of the Marne began on the 6th, +120 turns is a good yardstick on when to throw down the gauntlet. ;)

Naturally F14's campaign will turn out in any number of ways, many of which I am sure will not resemble the historical flow of events because, like the historical commanders, everyone has a mind of their own when it comes to planning. It would be a great experiment to (one day) see a collection of end game jump map screenshots and compare how similar or different campaigns played out with different commanders on each side.

Apologies if my posts are too lengthy; I just love to talk talk talk about WW1 - it is my warm and fuzzy spot. :whis:

[Shoopzee]

Howdy Ed,
If you ever find the time to get that team game up and running, let me know! Ted.

[Volcano Man]

Howdy Ed,
If you ever find the time to get that team game up and running, let me know! Ted.

OK, it is on the to-do list. ;)

[Jison]

Apologies if my posts are too lengthy; I just love to talk talk talk about WW1 - it is my warm and fuzzy spot. :whis:

If it is at all appropriate to use the words 'charm' and 'war' in the same sentence, I would also like to add that this game - France '14 - has a certain unique charm to me... It is very hard to put it in words, but this really is a charming wargame! :)

Looking very much forward to the next title in this series.

Jison

[enigma6584]

Apologies if my posts are too lengthy; I just love to talk talk talk about WW1 - it is my warm and fuzzy spot. :whis:

Please do continue these long trains of thought. They are a joy to read (your enthusiasm shows) and very educational to the newb like me.:bow:

[cazart!]

Is it too early to call for Tiller Con IV??

[Volcano Man]

No, not too early:

I hereby declare a big team based campaign of F14's "Early" and/or "Race to the Sea" at Tillercon IV! Now we just need to come up with the date... ;)

[jonnymacbrown]

"If it is at all appropriate to use the words 'charm' and 'war' in the same sentence, I would also like to add that this game - France '14 - has a certain unique charm to me... It is very hard to put it in words, but this really is a charming wargame! :)"

I think the reason you feel this way is that the game is actually a Napoleonic game. F 14 is the 1st game in the Tiller series that accurately portrays the mood and movements of Napoleonic armies. The game is about movement; and the grand tactical and strategic movements that are emblematic of Napoleonic warfare. There is no blasting open a hole for panzers to exploit. If you want to win in this game you need to continually outmaneuver your opponent on the grand tactical and strategic level; no panzer breakthrough is going to bail you out. Jonny