Extreme Assault Clarification

[Jim von Krieg]

K-Kat,

You mean that two undisrupted units were overrun with the two disrupted units? Now that is something... It has been my experience with most assaults with an undisrupted unit makes it a waste of time..

I don't have a lot of experience with EA, but I find that quite interesting... maybe they had low morale... easy to do with Amis... as the morale of their units are normally low...

EA requires a change in how you do business... but IMHO it is more realistic... there are countless tales of small units holding out and disrupting attacks... in the normal system, disrupted units are herded and annihilated in their pockets... too easily IMHO... I'm a master at it, but I don't think it really captures a good flow of battle... EA, while not perfect, is closer to what I think it should be...

Regards,

Jim

[Mr. Guberman]

Cheers,

Holding off for 10 turns, in a hopeless situation, is only 1 hour; 20 turns is 2 hours. Often, in combat, after the first repulse it takes some minutes (a half hour or more) just to get everybody back together and their heads on strait just to regroup; often it takes half the morning. EA is accurate. An unsuccessful assault is the pits.

Been there, done that.

Cheers
Curt

[Herr Straße Laufer]

The oddest things with EA only happen to those who don't know how to play with the rule on and then take every opportunity to lenghty piss on it verbally. The rule is optional so why discuss it.

I find your post distasteful.
I neither take every opportunity as you do in your effort to personally attack me and what I write, nor do I ever say anyone is stupid for using the EA rule.

I've often given you the benefit of the doubt. Here I do not.

The rule was being discussed in Jim's post. Obviously he must be as "stupid" as I to not understand how to counter EA and it's effects. :(

I'm not sure how to describe what went on in the scenario using as few words as would be acceptable to you. Nor was I responding to anything you were discussing.
A member questioned how and if my experience happened. I described it.

It you did not want to read my lengthy post put me in your ignore list.
This way I may not have to form the belief that you quite simply target me for your trash talk each time? :chin:

HSL

[Crossroads]

K-Kat,

You mean that two undisrupted units were overrun with the two disrupted units? Now that is something... It has been my experience with most assaults with an undisrupted unit makes it a waste of time..

I don't have a lot of experience with EA, but I find that quite interesting... maybe they had low morale... easy to do with Amis... as the morale of their units are normally low...

EA requires a change in how you do business... but IMHO it is more realistic... there are countless tales of small units holding out and disrupting attacks... in the normal system, disrupted units are herded and annihilated in their pockets... too easily IMHO... I'm a master at it, but I don't think it really captures a good flow of battle... EA, while not perfect, is closer to what I think it should be...

Regards,

Jim

Jim, that's right. As I wrote, I am no expert on this, but I have come to really like EA. You never can tell, but with the tactics I've described, I get a fair success rate.

If you looked at the DAR, on turn 20 (21?), I succesfully assaulted the hex south of Arracourt center. Just from the highway, having peppered the defenders with MG platoon and tanks. IIRC I got a couple SPs killed, so that was a good omen for the assault. It is possible the defenders only retreated, can't recall anymore... Wanted the hex anyway, so didn't care too much, was a happy camper!

After that, next turn came nothing (I might have had one unsuccesfull assault on VP hex, can't recall), but I was able to position my units better for the next try.

The amis started with two disrupted units, my arty caused one disruption, my close support units another one, and then, the second assault worked out. I only fired at the disrupted units, in a hope for causing more casualties to the stack as a whole.

That is how I play it; check the units you've got, check the opposition, figure out which platoon to pound. A kill severely affects the whole stack. Or so I believe :)

In my replay to get the screen shots, my first assault actually worked out. And if you recall, the Jerries are morale 5 units in "Legend"...

I don't know, nowadays, when I decide to assault, I pretty much get what I think I will (if I think this is pretty desperate it often fails, if I am confident I get it sooner or later), it might take two three turns but typically no longer than that. But you can never be sure, unlike with EA off. I quite like it.

A member questioned how and if my experience happened. I described it.

Just so that we are clear with this. I did not question you.

As I wrote, I intepreted (and emphasised it is an interpretation) your lines in a manner that what happened was using a lot of units for a single assault, with overwhelming odds.

I just pointed out that if that indeed is what happened, then with EA, it is often a better tactic to play out several assaults with even odds, rather than the one big charge with odds heavily on your side. And that way, I would be very suprised if the single defender would hold on.

Cheers,

Holding off for 10 turns, in a hopeless situation, is only 1 hour; 20 turns is 2 hours. Often, in combat, after the first repulse it takes some minutes (a half hour or more) just to get everybody back together and their heads on strait just to regroup; often it takes half the morning. EA is accurate. An unsuccessful assault is the pits.

Been there, done that.

Cheers
Curt

Cheers Curt While lucky enough to never done a live assault, I do feel that if your assault in CS keeps failing for ten turns, there is something that needs to be done differently...

Regards Petri

[Mr. Guberman]

This is the best (to this day) simulation of WWII combat. If it is taken that the unit representation is accurate...it should be axiomatic that the time representation should be to. In a 15 turn scen, if a unit repulses an assault...the scen has changed. Too bad. 15 turns is only an hour and a half. I have been too often engaged about the time scale in this game. For those wishing to conjure what 30 minutes IS. Go swing on a jungle jim for that long and come down, get your head on right...then assault...with nobody shooting at you...
I think...that will speak for itself.

cheers
Curt

[Von Earlmann]

[quote='Mr. Guberman' pid='338647' dateline='1298148699']
This is the best (to this day) simulation of WWII combat. If it is taken that the unit representation is accurate...it should be axiomatic that the time representation should be to. In a 15 turn scen, if a unit repulses an assault...the scen has changed. Too bad. 15 turns is only an hour and a half. I have been too often engaged about the time scale in this game. For those wishing to conjure what 30 minutes IS. Go swing on a jungle jim for that long and come down, get your head on right...then assault...with nobody shooting at you...
I think...that will speak for itself.

cheers
Curt
[/quote]

I guess you have said it pretty well :-)

---

[quote='Jim von Krieg' pid='338642' dateline='1298145953']
K-Kat,

You mean that two undisrupted units were overrun with the two disrupted units? Now that is something... It has been my experience with most assaults with an undisrupted unit makes it a waste of time..

I don't have a lot of experience with EA, but I find that quite interesting... maybe they had low morale... easy to do with Amis... as the morale of their units are normally low...
(quote/)
Jim,
It's more like the original rules that way. A good assault will work wether the units being assaulted are disrupted or not.......and a bad assault (or unlucky dice) will not always work just because the units are disrupted.Try assaulting undisrupted armor esp in a town hex also assaulting Ferdinands etc is much more realistic now.....no herding and no automatic wins or losses.....I haven't become an expert at it yet but I like it a lot more than the last version.........of course I'm just an old guy so don't pay me no mind.

VE

[Mr. Guberman]

...Town Drunk...to..."The Old Guy"...
...salute...
cheers
Curt

[Jim von Krieg]

Guys,

Let's not let this devolve into a spat... We're all adults and just need to speak civil to each other...

Yes, it is optional, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it... and we shouldn't get heated just because someone doesn't think we should talk about it...

Many of us are just working through to see how we can incorporate it into our strategy... I had to make a conscious effort to change up my methods... It is still in experimentation mode with me...

I'm just beginning to expand my understanding of EA through experience... and reading the experience of others...

I use firepower to disrupt and damage enemy units... artillery to pound a position... combined assaults from different directions... it works more often than not... however, it is definitely not the automatic tag'm and bag'm that it used to be...

Built up areas are much more difficult when infantry is in there... My experience with armor is pretty shallow, but it seems armor suffers a bit in built up areas... which is expected...

and in the Salerno fight, the special buildings make it a rough fight... My foe has tried various techniques, but the engineer still hangs on... I would write them off; however, it is very interesting how the engineers in conjunction with an early armored assault on the beachhead have really whittled the Amis down a bit... when I played the Amis, it would seem I got lucky as my foe bolted for the hills and didn't fight it out in Paestum...

Regards,

Jim

[Crossroads]

I'm just beginning to expand my understanding of EA through experience... and reading the experience of others...

My words exactly

You know what? This just got more interesting...

If you look at my DAR, I finally took Arracourt on turn 23.

If you look at the pictures from my re-enactment (as I took no screen shots during the game of turns 22 nor 23), I accidentally replayed turn 22! And not only that, but because I took the file from my opponent's email, I thus replayed the friendly arty phase as well. And unlike in the real battle, this time the friendly arty did not have one of the US platoons retreat from Arracourt, meaning I were facing four platoons!

I now replayed the same turn 22 four times again. Remember, in the actual battle, my assaults were unsuccesful.

This morning, the following happened (friendly arty again had one engineer retreating, so only three US platoons):

#22 vs 3 US platoons, one Eng disrupted, two platoons undisrupted

EDIT: I now know the US platoons were of 3SP, 3SP, 4SP and 1SP of strength. The one routed out was either a 3SP or 4SP platoon, leaving 7-8 SPs to guard the town hex. From SP point of view, that means I had 2:1 odds on my side.

Picture here: https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards...#pid338629

1) Direct charge straight after arty phase: Both assaults fail
2) Direct charge straight after arty phase: first assault one kill, second assault fails
3) Direct charge straight after arty phase: first assault succesful
4) Panzers and MGs in before the assault with one SP killed: first assault succesful

In conclusion: out of the five times tried, success twice, failior three times.

I have just now replayed the actual turn #23. No wonder my notes mentioned my units are now much better positioned for the assault, as in previous turn I was only assaulting from 1 o'clock and 7 o'clock. This time, I assault from four directions.

Here's the replay, just once, and with disrupted units highlighted:



#23 vs 3 undisrupted US platoons (1 armd inf, 2 eng)

Artillery phase (Yellow arrow)
1) Several rounds. No results.

Supporting fire phase (Orange arrows)
2) MGx3: -> armd inf: one disruption
3) 2 disrupt eng x2 -> armd inf: no result
4) 2 MGs x3 -> armd inf: one disruption
4) 5 squadrons of panzers x2 + spa x1 -> armd inf: one disruption

Assault from four directions(Red arrows)
5) assault from four directions: 5+3+2+5+1sp: first assault succesful.

Note: The panzergrenadier at 1o'clock can only assault once, as it needs to cross a shallow river. Other units have enough action points for two assaults if need arises.

In conclusion, what do we learn? I have actually come into conclusion I would propably not been able to take Arracourt without the EA option on. I never got even close disrupting all enemy platoons, hiding in the smoke

Go figure!

Comments?

[von Manstein]

Let ask to yourself a question: what is more annoying, trying to assault several times to be successful or watch like fast moving units are assaulting and capture your units after just only disrupting them once?

Answer is quite simple for me.