HPS NB vs. Battleground

FM WarB · 07-19-2010, 11:29 PM,

I would say that BG phased play encouraged panzerblitz tactics more than the HPS one turn mode. Cavalry could move its full allowance and then charge. Panzerblitzers could interpret this to be nothing less than a "mechanized movement phase."

Happily, the HPS Nappy games give players the ability to edit oobs at will, and create their own scenarios, changing whatever pdt or VP values they wish. It was much more difficult to do this with BG games. The appearance of the map and unit files can also be changed by players who like different looks.

Could there be improvements to the game engine? I've had an idea or two along those lines, but as far as gameplay is concerned the HPS series, which is supported is superior to BG, which no longer is.

wildb · 07-20-2010, 12:04 PM,

I do not have the BG, but, do have all the HPS Napoleonic. Currently playing the Ulm campaign as the Austrian in a PBEM game. It has so far been a lot of maneuvring, but, the climatic battle will soon occur near Augsburg. On turn 260 of 400 turns. I really like the campaign aspect of the HPS series. Hope to see 1813 by 2013 or 1807.

Jolly Roger · 07-20-2010, 05:48 PM,

Gentlemen,

I still agree with Rich, the BG and the HPS Nap. games could both be played in "Blitzkrieg" style. It depends on the players involved.
Some Nap. wargaming clubs designed special rules to prevent players from using unhistorical or even "gamey"tactics. I´d recommend to discuss all these aspects of the game with your opponents before you start a game. That´s definetely the best option to avoid annoying events.

Cheers, Klaus

jonnymacbrown · 07-21-2010, 01:53 AM,

"I still agree with Rich, the BG and the HPS Nap. games could both be played in "Blitzkrieg" style. It depends on the players involved."

The best way to stop the blitzkrieg is to compute movement allowance into melee, like in Pz.Campaigns. Who can resist launching infantry columns like heat seeking missiles from 500-1000 yards out with devastating effects? Even better when they are A rated; bang zoom!!

What does it take to fix this? Why isn't this simple cure not on the table? jonny:angry:

rahamy · 07-21-2010, 02:00 AM,

(07-21-2010, 01:53 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: "I still agree with Rich, the BG and the HPS Nap. games could both be played in "Blitzkrieg" style. It depends on the players involved."

The best way to stop the blitzkrieg is to compute movement allowance into melee, like in Pz.Campaigns. Who can resist launching infantry columns like heat seeking missiles from 500-1000 yards out with devastating effects? Even better when they are A rated; bang zoom!!

What does it take to fix this? Why isn't this simple cure not on the table? jonny:angry:

Because its not "simple" - you are talking about recoding a basic element of how the engine functions - moving to an "action point" system rather than a straight forward movement point system. So, not saying it will never get changed, but it is not a small tweak.

jonnymacbrown · 07-21-2010, 02:47 AM,

"What does it take to fix this? Why isn't this simple cure not on the table? jonny:angry:"

Because its not "simple" - you are talking about recoding a basic element of how the engine functions - moving to an "action point" system rather than a straight forward movement point system. So, not saying it will never get changed, but it is not a small tweak.

Ok, I actually didn't think it was simple, but it gets simpler when people begin thinking about it, the first plane of manifestation being the realm of ideas. That being said, I'd like to point out that the best Napoleonic game out there right now is F 14. The movements in that game reflect the movements of a Napoleonic campaign and battle: Nothing happens suddenly; when arty moves up it can only deploy next turn, same with MGs, and they can both shoot only in the turn after that. In my opinion, a Napoleonic "fix" would have to be of a similar nature but also for infantry and cavalry; both would need to spend a turn to deploy out of road column, and then only be able to charge/shoot in the turn after that. That would take the panzerblitz out of Napoleonics once and for all. jonny :soap: cheers

rahamy · 07-21-2010, 02:57 AM,

Points taken!

JasonC · (This post was last modified: 08-09-2010, 12:07 PM by JasonC.)

What makes for PB behavior in HPS vs. the older phased BG series is the freedom to interleave movement and combat to any degree of fine orchestration. PB isn't about movement allowances (which are player settable anyway) or roads. It is about piling up combat factors opposite an intended hole, then blowing and exploiting through said hole before the opponent is given any time to react. Then it becomes about tempo and moving a still concentrated fist through separated opponents. None of which happened in the Napoleonic era - the conditions for it did not exist.

And that is vastly worse in interleaved HPS than in phased BG.

The era reality was all formation types could line the frontage with loaded muskets and, regardless of density, inflict the same rate of casualties on the opponent as taken oneself, and higher if you were in better terrain. Overloading the frontage did not work because it just drove your own losses higher in direct proportion. Outlasting the enemy along a given frontage worked. Or making him vacate terrain by sustained and ranged artillery fire, that he choose not to stand under because infantry could not reply to it. But "breakthrough" by sheer local concentration and tempo never worked until armored vehicles appeared.

In the gunpowder era, all it did was drive the attempters loss rates to the ceiling. Everyone used deep formations of ranks and reliefs because those could always react and top off any threatened part of the defense long before the enemy could get through anything. Thus it took smart combined arms, long attrition outlasting operations, or turning wings, to decide Napoleonic battles. Just "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle" then overstacking to infinity then moving the fist around as rapidly as possible - not remotely.

Havoc · 08-09-2010, 01:12 PM,

It was suggested to me in the course of one of my current games that maybe they should introduce a movement point cost to melee a hex, such as 4pts. That would reduce the ability to 'blitz' a line with multiple focused assaults. It would also limit melees involving disordered battalions.

jonnymacbrown · 08-11-2010, 12:49 PM,

"What makes for PB behavior in HPS vs. the older phased BG series is the freedom to interleave movement and combat to any degree of fine orchestration."

This was an interesting analysis. However I wouldn't be hearkening back to BG as its offensive phase still allowed the 1500 yard cavalry charge out of nowhere; 10 hexes by road movement over hill and dale, and then the charge in the very next phase before the defense could do anything. At least HPS got rid of that and you have time to form square. Jonny :smoke: