Cheating

[low_bidder]

Narwin, what can a player do to get smoke to go away (clear LOS) faster? And if you say 'hit the clear button' I'll scream and throw my twinkie at the screen.
Then I will politely ask if player A moves his MBT up behind a smoked hex and the program clears that hex the next turn so player B can turn that MBT into flaming wreckage, what does the relative skill level have to do with that. Or if the smoke clears two turns later and Player A gets to blow away player B?
And then there are para-drops. Yes I can pick clear level areas, but that doesn't keep the program from dropping them somewhere else. And I don't even want to go into air strikes.
When I used random, it was with intent. Calling it something else makes it something else.
Probability and random are not synonyms. Look it up. Random Probability is a oxymoron that math majors with poor language skills use all the time. They should be saying 'statistical probability'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

Cross I was being lazy. I'm not sure I'm ready to play a human in WW2. I haven't made the adjustment from MBT speed and ranges to WW2 speed and ranges yet. When I do, I guess I'll just throw a chunk of meat onto the board and see what swims by.

[2ndLt_Fjun]

Probability and random are not synonyms. Look it up. Random Probability is a oxymoron that math majors with poor language skills use all the time. They should be saying 'statistical probability'.

Well, I didn't use the term "random probability". I said that throwing a dice gives a random number, which should be quite difficult to argue against unless the dice is fixed. When the "dice throws" are evaluated in the game mechanics probability comes into the picture. And it's the probability that matters in the end. I'm not a native english speaker so perhaps I confuse you with the language.

What I don't get, and what you are avoiding to answer, is how your random dice rolls in the long run eventually WILL make even an excellent player lose. That's just not the case. I made my point pretty clear earlier so I'll leave it here.

[low_bidder]

OK, we will agree to disagree.
I'm at fault, since communicating a concept is the responsibility of the one attempting to communicate it. I don't feel I avoided an answer, just that I didn't answer well enough for you to understand. Let my try again. Sooner or later, something will go really wrong. Something strange like shooting down a Jabo and having it crash on your A0, killing it. That cascades into missing rally rolls that allow a flank to collapse.
As far as the cheating, there is a long history of it in SP. That is why so many security 'fixes' have been done. I don't understand why some players cheat but I don't have to understand why to be aware of it happening.
Recently I was playing a campaign game against a new opponent. I had just moved a Patton Company (17 tanks) up behind a tree line. I had good scouting behind another treeline about 8 hexes away. There was 1 RRJeeep that I had seen. It was next to a gap in the tree line hidden from the treeline I was behind. I moved a platoon into my treeline to see if I could pot that RRJeep. I was seen and on his turn he potted a Patton. I got no op fire, even though the other 4 tanks had no suppression and the fast moving flag wasn't set. It happens. So the next turn I moved the rest of the tank Company into position. I had LOS to the gap in his treeline AND the tree line it self from over a dozen Pattons, none of them in a fast moving state and with 1 suppression point on maybe 4 of them. Most were high 60's, low 70's experience. So his next turn He popped out from behind that treeline with his RRJeep and killed two more Pattons.
I'm not sure how he did that, but I wasn't interested in playing any more so I surrendered the game and we parted ways. While it isn't impossible that 14 units in good order with clear LOS and decent Experience miss their op fire rolls, that wasn't the only time it had happened.
The traditional solution to "jack in the box" or "pop-up target" tactics is to get enough units in position to op fire so that when jack pops up, he dies. Maybe that has been coded out and I missed the notice. Maybe the bar for op fire was raised. Until I see the notice of that, I assume that somebody has found a new way to cheat.

[Narwan]

Narwin, what can a player do to get smoke to go away (clear LOS) faster? And if you say 'hit the clear button' I'll scream and throw my twinkie at the screen.

That's changing the subject. You we're talking about 'random' events. Smoke is not a random event. Even the duration that smoke lingers is only random between different games, not within a single game. It is fixed for that game. There are different types of smoke that have their own smoke density but that's all governed by strict rules, not randomness. A skilled players understands those rules and uses them to his advantage.

Then I will politely ask if player A moves his MBT up behind a smoked hex and the program clears that hex the next turn so player B can turn that MBT into flaming wreckage, what does the relative skill level have to do with that. Or if the smoke clears two turns later and Player A gets to blow away player B?

See above. A skilled player will know how long the smoke lasts. It's one the first things I check for in a game. As I said earlier, each game there's a random factor that determines the speed with which smoke disperses (a wind/weather dice roll if you like). Once that factor is determined it stays the same for the rest of the game.

And then there are para-drops. Yes I can pick clear level areas, but that doesn't keep the program from dropping them somewhere else.

The point being? Are you complaining that the game doesn't drop paratroops on the exact hex you pick? Then you're in the wrong game. The picked hex is merely the center of an area where the parattroops are likely to land. Skilled players now the likely drift so can make sure that there's actually enough open ground.
What skilled players also know is that the drift of the para's is not 'random' but follows the flight path of the dropping plane. So they'll pick a flight path that avoids as much dense terrain as possible along the whole route.

And I don't even want to go into air strikes.

Then I won't either.

When I used random, it was with intent. Calling it something else makes it something else. Probability and random are not synonyms. Look it up. Random Probability is a oxymoron that math majors with poor language skills use all the time. They should be saying 'statistical probability'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probability

Now you're just being argumentative for the point of being argumentative. So you have an opinion about the use of a certain phrase. Good for you. Too bad it adds nothing substantial. Doesn't make you right either.


Narwan

---

As far as the cheating, there is a long history of it in SP.

Which makes me wonder what SP games you're talking about. There's no long history of it in the CAMO games, barely a history at all.

That is why so many security 'fixes' have been done.

So 'many' huh? Care to come up with an actual count?

I got no op fire, even though the other 4 tanks had no suppression and the fast moving flag wasn't set.

The fast moving flag? Doesn't exist in the game.

It happens. So the next turn I moved the rest of the tank Company into position. I had LOS to the gap in his treeline AND the tree line it self from over a dozen Pattons, none of them in a fast moving state and with 1 suppression point on maybe 4 of them. Most were high 60's, low 70's experience. So his next turn He popped out from behind that treeline with his RRJeep and killed two more Pattons.
I'm not sure how he did that, but I wasn't interested in playing any more so I surrendered the game and we parted ways.

While it isn't impossible that 14 units in good order with clear LOS and decent Experience miss their op fire rolls, that wasn't the only time it had happened.
The traditional solution to "jack in the box" or "pop-up target" tactics is to get enough units in position to op fire so that when jack pops up, he dies. Maybe that has been coded out and I missed the notice. Maybe the bar for op fire was raised. Until I see the notice of that, I assume that somebody has found a new way to cheat.

So basically you were losing and blame it on either a cheating opponent or bad coding. Hmmm, puts a new light on your opinions concerning alledged 'random' events and what a skilled player can contribute.

Btw your traditional solution is a suicide tactic if used under the wrong circumstances. And not just in this game but in real life too. RR jeeps are supposed to sneak up on you. They'll see a Patton a lot sooner than a Patton will see them. Not that they needed to as you conveniently parked your tanks in plain sight so any unit of his could have spotted you. And told the RR jeep where you where. You knew there were tankkillers close by. Small, sneaky, hard to spot tankkillers. So you put all your tanks on parade? And then complain you lost 2 tanks? You picked the wrong tactic for the situation and it's the game's fault?


Narwan

[low_bidder]

"See above. A skilled player will know how long the smoke lasts. It's one the first things I check for in a game."

OK, I don't know how to check to see how long smoke lasts. Please enlighten me. With a reference.

I think you mis-read my post. My tanks were in a treeline. That is a line of trees, which provide concealment as well as cover. Not sure where the RRJeep was popping out because I never got an OP fire at it, which was my point. I assume it was pulling out into the open, since that would expend less MP's before shooting. It might have been pulling into the tree line. I had LOS to both.


And actually, I wasn't losing. I had what I considered the critical terrain, most of the flags and a favorable kill ratio. All of which has nothing to do with the subject.

"The fast moving flag? Doesn't exist in the game. "
From the manual;
"In WinSPMBT, you are considered fully stationary only if you neither moved this turn, nor the previous game turn (in technical terms, if you expend >= half your MP in a previous turn, a 'moving fast' flag is set, you need to spend a complete turn not having expended half or more MP to reset this flag). Movement will also break any fire control solution you have made on the target ('target lock') unless you have a tank with a stabiliser, which can move whilst keeping target lock, so long as the LOS between the firer and the previously engaged target is not broken. "

The above is a cut & paste from the online manual. It is in the "game play notes" section. In the paper manual it is on Page 26, 3rd Paragraph.

Narwin, I'm just having a conversation, trying to learn something. If you are taking it personal, I'll stop, since I have no intent to be personal and nothing to gain from it.

I wonder if my problem is due to my not using the Op Fire filter. I only use it when I'm playing an opponent with the CD. I don't think it's sporting to use it against a DL player. Might that change the Op fire routine results?

[Vesku]

I wonder if my problem is due to my not using the Op Fire filter. I only use it when I'm playing an opponent with the CD. I don't think it's sporting to use it against a DL player. Might that change the Op fire routine results?

Probably not, they've downgraded the OP probability so much that it's a joke these days.

[2ndLt_Fjun]

OK, I don't know how to check to see how long smoke lasts. Please enlighten me. With a reference.

Make a simple experiment: Drop a smoke round and see how long it takes until you can see through it. Until you know that crucial piece of information, don't rely on the smoke to last for long.

I wonder if my problem is due to my not using the Op Fire filter. I only use it when I'm playing an opponent with the CD. I don't think it's sporting to use it against a DL player. Might that change the Op fire routine results?

I don't think it has to do with the filter. Trusting opfire to do it's job is a big mistake, especially if your tanks have moved, if the distance is long or if your tanks are facing the wrong way from the enemy. Not sure if the last one actually matters. It's logical and I'm getting that impression from the results I see, but it might be wrong, I'm sure Narwan knows :) . Some unit types also seem less likely to trigger opfire. Motorcycles, jeeps etc. come to mind. Always expect the worst and hide your units at the end of every turn and you'll do much better.

[low_bidder]

"Make a simple experiment: Drop a smoke round and see how long it takes until you can see through it. Until you know that crucial piece of information, don't rely on the smoke to last for long."
I actually hardly ever use the old "Shields up Scotty" smoke screen. I consider that 'gamey'. I normally pop smoke and then move as soon as I'm able to.

I have quit setting ambushes. I regret that the ambush has been coded out of the game. Most warfare consists of ambushes and traps, done on one scale or another. Taking that out of the game, or making it more difficult completely changes the character of the game.
In the old days, the ops fire unit had to pass a check not unlike a close assault check. It wasn't the same exact check, but it was similar in concept. I think Wild Bill still has the 'fish tapes' of the huge on-line forum discussing the inner workings of SP.
Not that it matters anymore.
Anyway, the check was common sense based, The bigger, dumber, faster targets got shot up, which is how it should be. You can set ambushes and traps without OP fire, they are just not as effective and harder to pull off.
Players today don't co-operate like they did back in the mid 90's. Not sure If I'm getting 'dumber' or my opponents are getting smarter. The latter, I hope.
If you have the inclination, a DL slot open, and the urge, I think I'm about ready to try my hand at WW2 PBEM.

[Imp]

Its off topic but can someone tell me what people are banging on about with opfire ambushes etc??
Ambushes work just fine opfire kills them as would expect no problems.
Op fire also seems to work just fine to me 99% of the time, just occasionaly crew or squad screw up or seem blind but thats life.
No idea how works nor do I want details but taking a tank for example with no opfilter set seems to take these into account.
Chance to hit
Chance to kill
Threat level
This means a stationary tank will engage the same target further out as it has a better chance to hit it, the tank that moved will save its shot hoping for a target it has a reasonable chance of hitting however if its fired on will probably decide to fire anyway as its now a threat.
It also determines threats if a tank comes in view at moderate range it will probably fire at it while it might well let an APC trundle about till it gets closer & is therefore a threat hoping for a juicier target. After a few games you get an idea of how your digital soldiers react though once in a while they try something a bit diffrent which is fine people get caught out. Took me about 3 games to sus after playing WAW with its shoot anything that moves mentality

[klanx171]

Its a bit late but I occasionally have played people (not always in SP) who i thought might be cheating but it was less game mechanics but their own behavior that gave them away, things they might have said or how their forces moved or deployed or their turn rate (always longer for a good turn and very quick for a bad one) and other things, I never found out for sure and those who i did suspect I just didnt play anymore, compared to some other game forums, the blitz seems refreshingly free of such behavior.