SCOUTING

[K K Rossokolski]

Dan said
"What did they have KK? All I can recall for the Yanks were the Marine Scout Sniper units, which were in their infancy during WWII. Russian units seem to be born to recon with their in-game inherent stealth eh?"

JP said
"The Germans had the Spähtruppen.
The Soviet Razvedchiki were specially trained as deep reconnaissance units.
The Finns had the Erna long range recce groups."
Jason Petho

To answer Dan...my main CS interest is the Western armies and the more obscure WWII related conflicts. JP has advised of the existence of German, Finnish and Russian special purpose tactical recon elements. I am not aware of any special purpose infantry tactical recon elements in Western armies. As I said, you do what you need with what you have.

JP Thanks...do you know of such elements in Western Allies armies?
What I would love to see, and this is historically correct, is to give eyes and ears to leaders. Then our cyber Rommels, Konievs etc can do in the game what they did in history...take a squzz themselves.

I note Dan's concern about further high level intellectual debate on new/optional rules. I don't think this applies here, as we are talking about new capabilities. I believe the new land warfare capabilities have been accepted almost without reservation. I can't say the same for the other two dimensions, and I am on record with my strong opposition.

I would observe that some players, of which I am one, are inclined to use elements for which one has little regard as recon troops My favourites.... US 60mm mortar, Sov A/T rifle, Brit Carrier rifle section.

Give the Commanders eyes and ears I say!!!

[Stryker]

On the other hand......

Be careful when desiring more recon units to be able to spot everything your opponent does, you are in danger of ruining the game and making it uniform and dull.....

The point is, these "scenarios" are not entire battles, they are generally snippets of larger battles and are designed to be just that. both sides already know that the enemy is within a few minutes of engaging them, if you are defending, you will need to set up your defense as best you can, hold back your fire-brigade, sort out some nice surprises for any flanking enemy units etc. etc. If you are attacking, you want to be feigning attacks, getting round the flanks, probing the defense etc. etc.

Now consider having more recon units in these scenarios, it's going to take all the fun out of it, you'll know exactly where your enemy is, what he's doing and what his tactics are... to me, that sounds like a recipe for a dull battle.

To reiterate my point, you know the enemy is there, you know what troops you have at your disposal and you know what's coming. I don't think it's really necessary to have any more units on the map that cannot be seen... it's already a pain in the bum not being able to spot AT or Infantry-AT units even after they've fired 10 times (although I agree it needed the change).... it would IMHO be a whole lot worse thinking there could be units watching everything I do that I will likely never be able to spot.

I like to be creative in my battles and do what I think my opponent would not necessarily be expecting, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't..... put these new spotters in and I may as well give up playing.

[Dan Caviness]

KK, I think your on to something there. I agree it would be nice to have commanders capable of spotting, and with their small size they would be well concealed.

Rudolph, your on to exactly what I'm concerned about. While dedicated recon units will add complexity, (dare I say spice?)(I do, I'm saying it), to the game, it will be highly frustrating to watch your entire regiment get lit up with artillery from a singular spotting unit that you can't dig out.

Still...I'd be willing to at least give it a try and see. I like Jason's idea and just wanted to say they should probably be used sparingly, like the newer Panzerfaust and Sniper units.

I incorporated snipers into my Aachen Scenario, and I'll check with the Beta testers to see how they are playing out. I think they are serving as spotters more than combat units, and they have been hard to spot as you would expect.

There is another new "recon" tool out there...those being on map aircraft. While they are subject to the time honored Talonsoft "recon by death" rule if they stumble on the wrong AA unit you can park them in hexes where they are "safe" and use them to recon as well.

So...give me a Fieseler Storch...KK's scouting commander....load him up...toss a sniper in the back...and I'll tell you what those Yanks are having for breakfast!
Actually...if they are spotted...I'm thinking German Neblewerfers will be on the menu...
Tough to swallow but filling.

Regards,

Dan

[Mike Abberton]

One thing to keep in mind about spotting and recon, particularly when you are the attacker, is that it is not always (or even often) necessary to recon 4-5 km (16-20 hexes) behind the lines to satisfy the objectives of your advance.

In fact, in the capacity of most small to medium sized scenarios it is counter-productive. If you race your recon vehicles way behind the lines, you sacrifice all benefit of the recon units, because when they die, all you really know is that there is/was enemy units with LOS to the hex they died in, and maybe who did the killing.

So, if you have no forces to bring to bear on the units that killed your recon, you can't maintain LOS, you're still going to take the first shot when you move into that area for real, and you give your opponent one or more turns to rearrange units at his will. As seductive as the possibility of stumbling on an artillery HQ park and wreaking havoc is, it is not that effective a use of your recon. It took me a long time to realize this.

Now, most of the time I keep my recon relatively close, typically within range of fire from the follow-on forces, and that goes for dedicated recon elements or other units (infantry or armored) pressed into recon duty. The combat units hopefully advance from cover to cover, while the recon units peak over hills, and find good LOS positions to view from. Exactly how close depends a little on the firepower of the follow-up forces. Working with heavily armored forces with good range (and the visibility to use it), they might be 5-10 hexes out. Working with infantry, probabably a lot closer, 1-4 hexes.

I do have to admit that in effect I am still reconning by death. It's very difficult to keep recon units alive in CS on offense at least, and of course they attract a lot of attention from the other guy. But I think the trick is keeping the delay between your recon dying and your followup as small as possible.

EXCEPTIONS: The ever-present exception to the rule might be flanking moves/guarding the flanks. On defense, I often send recon units (especially the US Jeep Scouts who are way too fragile to use offensively, imo) down roads I don't intend to use to guard the flanks.

On offense, I might send recon units out away from the main body if there appears to be a possible way to sneak in, but even then I would usually send at least a token force with them to make any attack. The last thing I want to do is alert an enemy of an open flank with recon units, when I can't exploit it. If it's gonna take me 4 turns to move units to exploit that flank, that's 4 turns the other guy has to plug it.

Anyway, my thoughts on recon.

[Dan Caviness]

Mike:

Your thoughts are well thunken.

I forget the exact terms for the three classic recon methods but it appears you utilize a "recon in force" method which allows you to exploit/shoot any enemy units you do stumble on to and recon "the hard way". I think that is a good technique in the CS and probably the best when on the offensive. As you say, recon is extremely variable based on what you have and what they have.

I'm in the middle of a teamgame "Showdown at Borisov" with Smed and Guderian. Now in that scenario...with all the endless numbers of units and almost unlimited visibility...you recon knowing that unit will probably die. If your lucky you retreat to an unspotted hex...but you usually die. Still, with a big scenario, losses are expected, and those "dead man spots" are still a good way to keep your eye on what the enemy is doing if you can use the replay to keep track of them. Their units will disappear after the replay, but you still know where they are if you have the units to go out and get them.

As you say, it's also based on knowing what hexes you should be in or want to be in. I think one of the biggest differences between new players and the grizzled vets is learning how important that ONE hex may be to spot/for spotting...and knowing whether you can take that spot without getting hurt...or taking the chance if it's worth the risk and you can't be certain it's clean.

I also like your flanking technique. I usually just try to spot everything I can, and often reveal something along the enemy flanks I'm not able to do anything about. It pays to be patient.

Regards,

Dan

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

Excellent discussion thread on scouting!

Another effective use of scout assets are observing / guarding your flanks. Especially the German forces, when blessed with heavy armored cars like the SD Kfz 234/2 (Puma), SD Kfz 234/3, and SD Kfz 234/4, you effectively have "mobile" 50mm and 75mm anti-tank platforms that will obliterate "regular" enemy armored cars that try to sneak around your lines. :smoke:

Unfortunately, too many player try to utilize these heavy armored cars like tank destroyers... and you simply cannot go toe-to-toe with American or Russian AFVs with these thin-skinned cars!

[Skryabin]

On the other hand......

Be careful when desiring more recon units to be able to spot everything your opponent does, you are in danger of ruining the game and making it uniform and dull.....
(...)
I like to be creative in my battles and do what I think my opponent would not necessarily be expecting, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't..... put these new spotters in and I may as well give up playing.

Yes... now I see the other side. With those special recon units the game is going to have much less surprises. But I didn't want my opponent to have them! I was talking about myself LOL.

To be serious, thanks to all who share their experience. I learned a lot of new things about recon!


Dmitriy

[Glint]

''On the other hand......

Be careful when desiring more recon units to be able to spot everything your opponent does, you are in danger of ruining the game and making it uniform and dull.....''


I think, as these types of units are available with snipers, aircraft spotters and units already mentioned, and would only arise in new scenarios, regarding the above quoted concern, is covered in the new manual by the statement, ''any such units should be used sparingly'' (perhaps Jason could confirm this?) and so, if adhered to, would eliminate such worries?

regards
Peter

[K K Rossokolski]

I don't greatly like the spotter plane, not because it is unrealistic.....it was/is.....but because of its vast endurance it sees too much, especially in a big area scen.

[Jason Petho]

I don't greatly like the spotter plane, not because it is unrealistic.....it was/is.....but because of its vast endurance it sees too much, especially in a big area scen.

Not much for longevity though.

In the Smolensk von Earlmann Campaign I am running, both sides have lost a few of these even though their replacement is few and far between. They certainly appreciate having them though, especially on the 500 x 500 map.

Jason Petho