CS Game Scale - Manual Style

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Though, the "flex" crowd seems to think that the units on the map and the map itself can be "something other" than 250 meters and platoons?

I have to admit that I have difficulties accepting this interpretation. Too much depends on the 250m scale and platoon sized units to make them something else. If one does this then movement factors, attack factors and relative unit capabilities are all lost and the game is no longer a "simulation".

umbro

My point all along. Thanks! :smoke:



RR

[Mr. Guberman]

Ed,
At the bottom line, you provided no more info...

...why did you even respond...?

The GDmd scale ain't six minutes and you know that as well as I do. Rather than argue over that...we agree the scale is 250m per hex...scale has nothing to do with time, at that level. As has been described, dammit (and you have not responded to), 6 minutes is crap...and you know it, Ed.

Please quit being the curmudgeon..not because I want to win...but because your positition is hopeless...and just sad..., ...c'mon...

...lets have a drink around and look at it...shall we not"?

...(can't find the little smily face)...for real,...this is crap...you farckin' lost it..what is it you are trying to make?...Ed?

Christ....


I have put myself on the voluntary list of being excommunicated...

Cheers, ...and Ed, my "veteran" ('cause we know how to deal with things") friend...

"que paso?"...

Curt

[Hawk Kriegsman]

The GDmd scale ain't six minutes and you know that as well as I do.

So are the designers of the game who state in every manual of the game that the time is 6 minutes per turn are also wrong. Can you explain to me why they would state that if it was not the case?

Rather than argue over that...we agree the scale is 250m per hex...scale has nothing to do with time, at that level.

You would be incorrect.

Rate of fire = time
Miles per Hour = time

As has been described, dammit (and you have not responded to), 6 minutes is crap...and you know it, Ed.

As Ed and I have done is point to every single version of the game's manual and point out (in my case) at least 2 sections where the designers of the game clearly point out that the time scale is 6 minutes.

Please quit being the curmudgeon..not because I want to win...but because your positition is hopeless...and just sad..., ...c'mon...

To argue aginst the source documention developed and written by the designers of the game is the only hopeless and sad position here. The designer's intent of scale is clearly documented.

Would it have been better if they had said a turn represents six minutes of action. Yes absolutely, but they did not. I have always accepted that this was the cases as Mike and Umbro pointed out.

...lets have a drink around and look at it...shall we not"?

We shall not.

...(can't find the little smily face)...for real,...this is crap...you farckin' lost it..what is it you are trying to make?...Ed?

Don't know what this means.

CS was deigned as a tactical level game not an operational level game. That being said the majority of operational level scenarios designed are fantastic and I play them all. They all have one major flaw however.

They in no shape manner or form model fatigue or supply on the opperational level.

Let's take a 60 turn scenario and use two scales of time. 6 minutes per the manual and 15 minutes which seems to be an accepted time among many of the large scenario designers.

We get 360 minutes (6 hours) per the manual and 900 (15 hours) per the flexible time scale crowd.

Let's start with the humble infantryman. He can move every single turn (double timing every other turn) for 60 turns and be fresh as a daisy on turn 60. That is hard to swallow for a scenario lasting 6 hours and is ludicrous for a scenario lasting 15 hours.

An isolated infanty platoon can shoot every single turn for 60 turns. There is no resupply fuction in CS. Yes every unit checks for supply but this is an abstract concept at best and our infanty unit is completely surrounded.

I am resonably sure that no infantry unit carried enough ammo to fire continuously for 6 hours let along 15 hours. I am also equally sure that most small arms could not be fired for 6 straight hours (let alone 15 hours) with breaking down or being ruined.

I have a coworker who is a collector of fire arms and has a collector's gun permit. I have fired his M1 Garand, MP 40 and Sten. After 90 minutes on the range I was tired. I do not think a man could fire a weapon for 6 hours straight let alone 15 hours.

The point is here that an infanty platoons limitations on ammo and fatigue are totally thrown out the window in larger scenarios.

Lets move to the humble King Tiger it held 227 gallons of gasoline, had an operational range of 75 miles on a road and 50 miles cross country, had a top speed of 23 miles per hour on a road and 10.5 miles per hour cross country. It consumes 3 gallons of gas per mile on the road and 4.5 gallons of gas per mile cross country.

A King Tiger can move at top speed for 3.25 hours on the road and can move at top speed for 4.75 hours cross country before running out of gas. This is far short of a 6 hour or 15 hour scenario.

This does not take into account any elevation changes or obstacles. This is also going at maximum speed. Having a mecahnical breakdown, throwing a track or getting stuck

The CS game engine has no provision for refueling. No truck with barrels of petrol have to go meet it and they have to spend no time hand pumping fuel into the King Tiger.

In any long scenario fuel consumption goes out the window both in temrs of getting the fuel to the vehicle but the time to refuel the vehicle.

Let's move one to the IS-2 heavy tank and its 28 rounds of ammo.

It could fire about 3 rounds per minute. In the game the IS-2 can fire every single turn no questions asked. It would be out of ammo in 10 minutes!!

Far short of of a 6 or 15 hour scenario. CS has no provisions for bringing the IS-2 its ammo. No ammo carrier has to get to it (nor does it have to disengage to go to the ammo carrier) nor do you have to spend time hoisting the shells (mostly likely by hand) into the turret and then into the ammo racks.

No matter how you view CS's time scale you have to accept a whole host of abstractions.

The game is and always will be about the action part of combat.

It is not and never was about resupply, getting orders, waiting in line for chow, having the MP's check your orders, wiring bridges, changing barrels on my machine gun, taking prisioners, evacuating wounded, etc, etc, etc.

Christ....

Indeed!

I have put myself on the voluntary list of being excommunicated...

I'll believe it when I see it.

Thanx!

Hawk

[Herr Straße Laufer]

The GDmd scale ain't six minutes and you know that as well as I do. Rather than argue over that...we agree the scale is 250m per hex...scale has nothing to do with time, at that level. As has been described, dammit (and you have not responded to), 6 minutes is crap...and you know it, Ed.

I have always accepted the abstract nature of many of the game's features. I accept them as the exception and hope they do not become the rule. ;)

I'll let the game manual speak for itself. I am not going to allow my self to be drawn into the taunting member's argument where I will be censured by the club leadership for "causing a disruption". My intent is not to disrupt, it is to simply show the facts (those contained in the game manual and not made up by others along the way).

If any game designer, past or present, wants to model a battle that was an operation of many days or multiple hours, I am perfectly fine with it. It is only a game?
Feel free to express yourselves in that way.
Just keep the schoolyard taunting and name calling to yourselves?

Manual Page 13
Welcome to the Campaign Series!
The Campaign Series is a tactical-level game portraying some of the significant battles from 1936 to 1945 in the European and Pacific Theaters of Operation. Choose to fight as the Axis or Allies in over 300 historical scenarios. The choice is yours. Pit your skills against the computer or a human opponent in any of the many historical scenarios, or try your hand in full-fledged campaigns consisting of linked scenarios, where each battle counts. You can also go head-to-head against fellow gamers at home via the Internet in games with up to 16 players!
Each scenario is played on a unique map with five “view modes.” Most scenario maps are based on historically-accurate 1940-era 1:50,000 scale maps actually used by Axis and Allied commanders during the war. Each “hex” represents 250 meters; with 4 hexes to a kilometer or 6 hexes to a mile. Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time.
Each scenario has a variable number of Game Turns, in which you and your opponent attempt to capture or defend Objectives and smash more enemy troops then you lose. Every conceivable type of battle action is represented in the scenario selection: meeting engagements, armored breakthroughs, trench defenses, exploitation, reconnaissance, battles of attrition, mobile defenses, and much more.

Here is something from the game folders. If you hit the link to "Help" and then "Game Parameters" you will find:

Parameter Data

Minutes per Turn: 6 Meters per Hex: 250

Maximum Units per Hex: 6 Maximum Strength Points per Hex:24
Maximum Strength Points per Road: 12 (more than this number of SPs in the hex negates any road/railroad/path in the hex)

Minimum Non-Wreck Strength Points per Hex that Block LOS: 13
Minimum Wreck Strength Points per Hex that Block LOS: 6

Please quit being the curmudgeon..not because I want to win...but because your positition is hopeless...and just sad..., ...c'mon...

I think you can also explain the difference in scenario length versus engagement length in history (or at least part of it) as "skipping over the boring parts" rather than a floating game scale.

Therefore when modeling a 6 hour engagement in something like 15 turns (i.e. 90 minutes of combat time), you're skipping over 4.5 hours of reconsolidating forces after capturing each objective, calling and waiting for more orders, waiting for the ammo trucks, waiting for someone to bring you your pack that you left behind (rather than sprinting into combat with a full pack), catching your breath, etc. You don't need 24 minute turns to do that (6 hours/15 turns).

Does that explanation require some abstraction, too. Sure. But with this method, it keeps the hex scale consistent with travel speeds (even if infantry are all marathoners). I think the big problem with this explanantion for scenario designers who want to design huge scenarios is that this model breaks down when you have multiple independent forces on the map working semi-independently over long periods of time. You end up with groups of units who are accumulating "downtime" at different rates.

Does all that make the 6-minute game scale "wrong". No, it means you're designing out of the game's "sweet spot". Can you do that and "tweak" the game scale to compensate? Of course you can. But just because it is possible to design a 1,000-turn scenario with 4 divisions worth of troops on each side, and a 500x500 hex map, doesn't mean the game was designed to model that.

Based on the manual, I would say that game was designed for 6-minute turns and relatively small (say regimental size plus support)/short (say up to 25-30 turns) scenarios. The fact that scenario designers (who may or may not have had anything to do with coding the basic game engine) chose to deviate from the sweet spot from day 1 doesn't change the basic design concept at all.

Anyway that was my one rambling comment on the whole game scale debate. In the end, I agree with the saner people on the thread who have said "design and/or play what you enjoy, and let the other drown in the details".
Mike

II agreed with Mike, especially the bolded part.

Maybe you can try your hand at a scenario design using the parameters set in the game manual?
I won't try to force you to do it. Or, try to do what you are doing, in constantly harping on those who think other than you. I accept that you and others want to model scenarios based on an operational concept. If they are good and balanced, I could care less if they have dimensions that are not based on the scale that is CS.

That said, I have also received an e-mail, from another member, asking me to not post and then the "sender" posts an attack against me in this thread. To which I have not responded. Kinda like tying my hands to a chair and then being beaten about the head, eh?
Now that is fun, huh? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure where you are headed and/or why. I have stated my position, which seems a bit more "forgiving" than yours?
I've quoted previous posts above where I have already addressed your questions and the statements you have made here now.
I've also not tried to make anything personal.
I've stated that you and others are free to create whatever scenario you wish based upon any premise you wish? If they are good I will play them.

Besides asking me not to post, accept your premise (not based on the facts found within the game itself), or simply take your personal insults and taunting in stride, what more do you want of me?

You circle back to the "six minutes", that you think is a great "gottcha" moment, where I already stated that I thought twenty or thirty minutes is more like it, but, it does not ruin the game for me to see it as six minutes as long a general scale is followed.

And, BTW, the size of a hex is a huge determining factor in the scale of time and unit size. This has been true of every simulation game and most war battle games since the beginning of war games. :smoke:

Concerning your future posting. If you, and others, cannot control yourselves and stay within posting decorum, it is fine by me that you wish to be banned. Voluntary or involuntary your restriction will only help you? :chin:

You've also said that you cannot find the "smileys". Try hitting the "preview post" button. Immediately to the left you will see a host of emoticons along with a "get more" link. You will find that there is a limit of ten emoticons to a member's post. Which includes any copied emoticons in a quote. :)



RR

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Thanks Erik. :bow:
Well said. :thumbs_up:



RR

[Kool Kat]

Gents:

After 3 screens of "discussion," the thread comes full circle to the truths originally stated by Ed and others...

"Each "hex" represents 250 meters."

"Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time."

Why is that so difficult for some players to understand and accept? :chin:

[Hawk Kriegsman]

"Each "hex" represents 250 meters."

"Turns are equivalent to approximately 6 minutes of real time."

You are spot on Mike.

Let's go back to our King Tiger. It costs 8 action points to move one paved road hex. 100 action points divided by 8 equals 12.5 hexes per 6 minutes or 125 hexes in 10 turns which is 1 hour.

125 hexes is 31,250 meters.

31,250 meters is 19.4 miles in an hour (10 turns).

If we go cross country the cost is 16 action points per hex.
100 action points divided by 16 is 6.25 hexes per 6 minutes or 62.5 hexes in 10 turns which is 1 hour.

62.5 hexes is 15,625 meters.

15,625 meters is 9.7 miles an hour.

This compares directly with the King Tigers technical specifications of 23 miles per hour on a road and 10.5 miles per hour cross country.

So not only did the designers use 6 minutes for a turn they apparently factored in a bit of stand around time (at least for the King Tiger) in to boot!!

Thanx!

Hawk

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Erik,

Of course. They would have to? :chin:
It's a basic precept of game design. It works in both board and computer wargaming. :)
If I ever say, "you do the math", I will remember that you do the math! :smoke:

Mike,

Thanks! I've taken to not "getting in someone's face" for not reading what has been written. I try to simply re-quote the parts they seem to have glossed over, and package it to address their "new" comments/questions.

I used to have James Dunnigan's, wargame design book. I have been looking for it and cannot find it. In addition to being a good military historian, he was a great designer and developer for Avalon Hill and then SPI. (I think :chin:) He also designed a scenario for EFII? I've also seen him on news shows as an advisor. I even met him at some conventions over the course of years.
He's written about all that one would need to know concerning designing a game according to scale.



RR

[Glint]

I can't believe all this crap!
It's a game, designed, but with all sorts of interpretations by all sorts of players.
When I play a game, I might check how far a unit is going to move, what it's range is etc., and voila! - That's what the game does. Some of these posts makes me think some guys shouldn't be playing games, they should be doing the real thing, maybe be President of the USA and decide once and for all what the defining rules are?
I have no agenda in all this other than to try and suggest a few people are overriding others thoughts, ideas, contradicting them with 'slide-rule' comments to disprove their' thoughts and destroying what, a few years back, was a great site. Now one becomes less and less interested in bothering to enter a post and give a point of view.
This site is getting debilitated by a few people.
I bought this game and nothing anyone says will detract from the enjoyment I get from it. That's based on 'MY' interpretation of the game, cos I paid for it. I don't need to come in here, trying to be a part of the community, only to see others' comments dismissed by quoting 'The Manual' - the manual was written ages ago, everything has a learning curve in life, hopefully, some in here will start 'learning' as well?

regards
Peter

[Herr Straße Laufer]

I don't need to come in here, trying to be a part of the community, only to see others' comments dismissed by quoting 'The Manual' - the manual was written ages ago, everything has a learning curve in life, hopefully, some in here will start 'learning' as well?

Stuff and nonsense Peter.
Your griping and sniping at fellow members will not change the game's scale.
The manual was written long ago is your argument? It fails, in my opinion because the game was made a long time ago based on the scale set in the manual. Did you not read Erik's example of the King Tiger and how it's specs fit the scale of the game?

Please, If you have other than personal attacks against CS Ladder members bring it on? But, to be in a tissy over comments by others is really draining. Your mud slinging and snide remarks don't help your cause.
Show me where the game is not set by the scale included in the manual, or Parameters data table.
It is how games are made. It is how this game is made.

The Bible is an old "document". The Constitution of the United States is an old document. Their truths are constant today. Even if "some" want to interpret differently, change, or belittle them because they are old.

Sheesh, the only one bringing things down is you.
You fight with the army you have. Not with the army you wish to have? :chin:



RR