German firepower

Huib Versloot · 04-13-2009, 08:31 AM,

David Galster and I were trying to analyze why we had been unable to balance one of the new scenarios we are working on. I wrote the following statement an perhaps it is a nice subject to discuss here. Fire away (but don't kill me please...;))

David,

I agree. I don't think we really made any serious mistakes in our research. It is more the limits of the game engine that cause problems in these type of unit intensive scenarios I think. I have always had my doubts about the 4 HMG units in each German company having an effectivity at 1 hex of 16 over 10 for the British Vickers HMG AND an extra shot each turn (48 vs 20). Besides that, German HMG are present in far higher numbers than the Vickers HMG.

In short, in my opinion the Germans are "über" powered in CS (since all other German infantry platoons are also better in various degrees than the Brits). With so many units in a big historical setup and historical terrain (forest), this becomes apparent and difficult to mask with victory conditions and objective values.

Huib

Our solution was to drastically cut the # of German HMG in half in this particular case.

Herr Straße Laufer · 04-13-2009, 10:15 AM,

US Army training film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EkNgWDvo...re=related

From History Channel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSCDkkoAK...re=related

HC's "Mail Call":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3fpBUvSM...re=related

Couple more YouTube vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-BzoRF76...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHWxutC0d...re=related

RR

1925frank · 04-13-2009, 12:53 PM,

I've noticed the same thing with the German 4 HMG units. Not only do they get the extra shot, but each of the three shots is a whopper. It's like having hidden extra units on the map. If you had multiple German 4 HMG units on the map, I can see where it would tip the scales radically. I have no idea whether it's historically accurate, but it's an exceptionally powerful unit.

Huib Versloot · 04-13-2009, 08:45 PM,

To me it would seem fair to represent their higher effectivity with either an higher attack rating than other MGs OR with an extra shot. Currently they have both.

Fubar · 04-13-2009, 09:01 PM,

Nice youtube links.....thanks.

:bow:

crh3 · 04-14-2009, 06:49 AM,

This is a very interesting point of discussion. I too have been bothered by the firepower of the German HMG units. I think the solution is not that the German HMGs are overpowered, but that some of the other nations HMG are underpowered. In the case of the MG-42 - Vickers comparison, the numbers are about right. If you take the rate of fire of the MG-42 (1200 rpm - the ideal maximum rate) and the rate of fire of the Vickers (500 rpm - slightly lower that reality), then you get the following numbers:

MG-42
16 12 10 8 6 4

multiply by 3 and divide by 2 (convert to 2 shots per turn)
24 18 15 12 9 6

Now multiply each number by the rpm ration for each gun (500/1200) rounding down:
10 7 6 5 2 2

This is pretty close to the firepower of the Vickers as represented in the game:

10 9 8 6 4 2

Maybe the MG-42 was really that much better than the Vickers.

K K Rossokolski · 04-14-2009, 08:25 AM,

I am still without any convenient computer access...and may be for a while...(this from a public machine) but I was playing To Cross a River (EF) against Montana Grizz (who was handing me my arse on a plate BTW). I noticed, empirically, something I believe to be completely wrong historically. Grizz's PzJg Tiger, or Ferdinands, were carving my Sov infantry up at a great rate, as I tried to develop a surround/assault tactic against these beasts. This seems totally at odds with the history as I understand it, in that the thing was a total failure, largely because it was defenceless against infantry, not having a machine gun. I think the soft attack value of these things needs looking at.

Just to reiterate, out of action for a while yet.

Von Luck · 04-14-2009, 08:43 AM,

Ed is right cheap to build simple to use and mentain plus the very very high rate of fire made the mg42 a lethal killer hence its better factor in the game.Point to take and this is from offical sources when you heard an MG42 fire you ducked even if it wasnt aimed at you that's how lethal and demorolising this weapon was.Excuse the spelling im drinking.

Dan Caviness · 04-14-2009, 12:59 PM,

And well you should be drinking if you were about to storm and take a highly lethal MG 34 or MG 42! Have one for me jb!

When you consider the weapon's (for a machine gun mind you) mobility and portability, it's incredible rate of fire, and it's (optional yet common) long range optical comparators, it really does outshine about any other MG of the war. The tripod itself was an advance over other models of the time, and with the option to change out barrels as they overheated it could basically put out ungodly amounts of firepower in a very short time.

No Spandau ballets, no venerable Vickers on little Russian wheels, no antiquated Browning .30 cal water or air cooled, was in it's class. You could argue we had the .50 cal BMG and we did. Argue the fact that it took 3 men to carry the 50 BMG in parts and another two or more to hump ammo...and you can see why the German army was the only army during WWII to routinely use the MG as an offensive weapon.

But...as an offensive weapon....they didn't have well set tripods and optical comparators/rangefinders/etc...and you can certainly argue that it's effectiveness would be reduced in this capacity.
I believe their movement should reflect this. They should be slower than their PzGdr counterparts.

I will say that many of the newer "veteran" infantry units in the Matrix game version now share the 33 point fire cost with the German MG's. That is a step in the right direction, and they put out a respectable amount of offensive firepower as well. If you haven't played any scenarios with them, your in for a treat. Of course, then you have the dreaded "green" infantry to bring you back to earth....literally...

For the record my blood alcohol level is 0.000 as I write this post...but I'm in Mexico...and it's time to head for the bar my friends where I will remedy that problem... cheers

Dan

Huib Versloot · 04-14-2009, 06:05 PM,

Maybe I should explain that in the scenario we are trying to make the German MG's produce much more casualties than in reality. My guess is about 500% more than in reality. Maybe the numbers are correct but is the type of battle just hard to model in CS with so many MG's. (Battle in the Reichswald)