Early war engineers

Huib Versloot · 03-10-2009, 05:40 AM,

1925frank Wrote:The Germans had stormtroopers in WWI, and I'm wondering if the hard attack has something to do with that. It's apparently some skill or aspect in which the Germans excelled that only the British and Americans attempted to mimick with some success but not equal success.

I don't think we should search much after the intentions of the original makers. They also gave "Volksturm" troops an enormous hard attack value of 24 just because these were supposed to have a Panzerfaust. This means that these civilians and kids can also take out a concrete bunker. In reality 99% of these "troops" were sent home by the regular army straight away. Level of training etc was not at all considered in this case by the original makers. I don't think much more thinking went into the other units. A lot of it, is stereotypical and common (sometimes false) assumptions rather than anything else.
I wouldn't be surprised if they just "forgot" to give other nations' engineers an hard attack value > 1.
I think they spent more time doing the weapon data (which is very good in this game IMO) than researching units for other parameters than their weapon inventory (level of training/ doctrine etc)

Huib

K K Rossokolski · 03-10-2009, 07:09 AM,

A lot of good, hard sense in this thread. From where I sit it seems all posters have made a worthwhile contribution. And I detect no significant disagreement as to the way ahead.
I suggest what is needed now is someone with a mathematical bent, with a knowledge of how the game works, to put up a firm summary or proposal. The question at issue seems to be "Modification of attack values of early war (up to mid 1942) engineer troops"

Herr Straße Laufer · 03-10-2009, 07:42 AM,

Since we are looking at German Engineers:

Training film one-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFBclz8ot...re=related

Training film two-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbaKH4Wat...re=related

Training film three-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLoXjdi0z...re=related

I'm going to search around for American and/or Brit film. I'm starting to enjoy youtube (once you break through the clutter).

RR

Herr Straße Laufer · 03-10-2009, 08:01 AM,

Not quite engineers, but you gotta love "men against tanks".
Smoke 'em if ya got 'em.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRULO2Pnv...re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYyJOdOhM...re=related

RR

1925frank · 03-10-2009, 08:02 AM,

For giggle purposes only, this is what Denis Mack Smith had to say about the Albanians when Italy invaded: "Ciano's chief assistant, Filippo Anfuso, after describing how the foreign minister flew briefly over the battleground with other ministry officials to qualify for his campaign medal, commented that 'if only the Albanians had possessed a well-armed fire brigade, they could have driven us back into the Adriatic.'" "Mussolini's Roman Empire" p. 153. That's apparently where I got the idea the fighting wasn't that intense. Smith devotes ten pages to the invasion of Albania and never mentions the resistance that followed. In fairness to Smith, his focus wasn't the military aspect.

K K Rossokolski · 03-11-2009, 05:51 PM,

1925frank Wrote:"Ciano's chief assistant, Filippo Anfuso, after describing how the foreign minister flew briefly over the battleground with other ministry officials to qualify for his campaign medal,

Ciano wasn't the first, won't be the last either. I've seen enough of it to make even a hardened cynic vomit.

Mike Abberton · 03-12-2009, 08:20 AM,

Seems to me that Engineers should maybe get some kind of boost on their assault factor versus hard targets like tanks and pillboxes (although I realize there isn't really a "hard attack assault factor"), but a generally reduced hard attack factor at range (at least more in line with national infantry of a similar time).

Regarding panzerfausts, if panzershreks and bazookas are sketchy to include in a 1 hex hard attack factor, these would be doubly so. Their practical ranges are only 30, 60 or 100 meters depending on the model with the 100-yarders only coming out in late 1944 (technically there was a Pzfst150 but that came out in March 1945 in really small numbers). This seems definitely like an assault level weapon only.

Steelrain60 · 03-12-2009, 01:13 PM,

One aspect that I haven't seen brought into this conversation is that German pioneers were viewed as "enhanced" infantry by the Germans. That is a sharp departure from how American engineers were viewed by the US Army. The American Army viewed their engineers as "Combat Support" troops. Whereas German engineer battalions might be given a piece of line to defend, this happened to American engineer combat battalions only in extreme situations.

I'm not sure how British doctrine felt about their engineers.