Air interdiction!

[MasnarT]

Now how to deal with that ??

you can't imagine how much is hard to move units in daylight in some Modern campaigns. Heavy losses each move: 14-28 Men in a Mech Bn... sometimes over 100 Men in an Engineer Mot. Bn, 4-8 heavy Tanks, sometimes around 10 light Tanks, many full Bn of Mot Artillery is destructed..... etc. and that is "almost" every move!! A few turns and your Army loose the initiative before it starts Combat!!

and while moving at night saves troops from this effect, almost all players choose the night fatigue rule so what to do !

for example, i am playing jihad '04 (by VM, a Mideast '67 Exp. pack) and loosing men and vehicles while moving. everywhere... Lebanon, Syria, Sinai, Egypt. Maybe this is for balancing the campaign and simulating the strength of the Israeli Airforce( i have experienced the Israeli Airforce capabilities for a long years since 1993, through 1996, and all the years between 2000 - 2006 in my Country. I know very well what it can do....).
i am in turn 21, and a few turns i will achieve a draw, and the campaign is open for a victory regarding my position in it, but i am talking about my satisfaction while playing. Really in my point of view the annoying Air interdiction every time, everywhere, makes the game less fun.

i am playing for fun. Yeah it is a high level simulation, and the best Op. tactical series available, but i can say -and i am not newbie to Panzer neither Modern campaigns (playing since 2000)- it wasn't this way in the past.... i am not finding any fun even playing my first and best MC title, Fulda gap '85. i stopped playing that since the last update, and start focusing on WWII titles.

is there better ways for designers to balance the scenarios?

but anyway, my question for now is about any tactics -while playing- to avoid this devastating effect.

what i said above is only my personal point of view. Sorry for this long thread. i am not asking more then little hints (if available). i am not asking for modifications since didn't hear any complaint from players around the world.

[FM WarB]

A problem with interdiction in these games is that FlaK is useless against it. You cannot even shoot back.

[Marquo]

Air superiority is devastating. I do not think that it is overdone, especially in campaigns like N'44 and the MC. You can't just promenade exposed columns of tanks and trucks full of infantry on the open roads in day light without expecting severe consequences. As for night fatigue, it is the small price you pay for not getting staffed into eternity.

Marquo ;)

[Turner]

Just a note on the subject. In Normandie, allied pilots of various strike/fighter attack a/c claimed a total of destroyed armored vehicles which was twice that of the number actually fielded by the germans.

In part this can be explained by the fact that vehicles claimed to have been destroyed were in fact only put out of action for a few hours up to a few days, to return to active status after repairs. In some cases the vehicles may not even have been seriously damaged at all.

Like in the case of the bombing of KG von Luck in Normandie where his 2. PzGr Bn was wiped out, all the Tigers (I forget which unit, someone might know but I don't have time right now to look it up) of his s. Pz were put out of action with one actually turned upside down! Still, the next morning 90% of the tanks were back in working order.

All in all the effects of airpower was widely exaggerated post-war. For a modern day example, look at the effects of NATO bombings of the Serbian Army in Kosovo (-94 was it?). NATO destroyed a lot of tanks, however the serbs learned to build a lot of decoys. Fake camouflaged targets emitting IR signals. Simple wooden frame decoys which NATO spent a lot of expensive ordnance to take out.

I don't have enough details about it to draw conclusions, other than air power must be used wisely to have maximum effect. It's easy to over estimate the effects of bombing. It would be interesting to see the USAF internal investigations on this matter. Somehow I think that's classified information. :)

[Aetius]

From PzCampaigns manual:

Air Interdiction

"As units move on the map in Travel or Rail Mode, there is a chance that their movement will be Interdicted by enemy air units. This probability is based on Parameter data per side (see the Parameter Data Dialog in the Main Program). The probability is based on the total number of units in Travel or Rail Mode in the hex being moved into. The probability is modified by any terrain modifier of the hex being moved into. The probability is half during Dawn and Dusk turns. If Interdiction occurs, then an Air Strike occurs against a unit in the target hex using an air unit that is representative of the type of air unit available to the enemy side. However, this air strike does not count against the air units available by the enemy. Note in addition, that movement by units in Deployed Mode into hexes occupied by units in Travel or Rail Mode can also trigger an interdiction attack against the units in Travel or Rail Mode."

So, you have a few tips there that can decrease the possibility of interdiction even in daylight: move through defensible terrain, avoid the open and have no more than one unit in a stack.
If you have to move at night only don't worry about night fatigue; you will have plenty of time to recover during daytime.

Rui

[Ricky B]

I personally would agree with Dany that the interdiction impact in the campaign/large and long scenarios can be a bit much. I am not sure that is such an issue with the latest updates in Danube Front, haven't played the WP side but NATO does okay in regards to interdiction, so I thought it had been toned down, or at least felt about right. In an earlier play of NGP, the Soviets suffered very heavily, much more so than I think we are seeing in the current DF game I am playing.

But in Jihad '04, which is not a stock game by the way, the interdiction is just way too high, at least for the game system/setup for that scenario. The Egyptians in particular, but also many Syrians, have a long way to travel to the front, and it really requires travel mode to do, definitely for the infantry forces. I have been in 2 games of it as the Israelis, and in the first one the Arab force suffered such high interediction losses that they really had no chance of winning - the VPs were dropping very fast due to the losses and probably would have made an Arab victory on VPs anyway totally impossible, and would have crippled an attack after the forces moved up. That game ended fairly early.

In the second game, against a different player for the Arabs, I suggested halving the strength of interdiction attacks - I think we left the frequency alone. Hurts the Israelis but makes for a much more balanced situation. That still results in plenty of attacks and losses, my opponent says the attacks are still hurting him a lot, he would hate to have played with the higher losses from the original game, but he has had plenty of strength left after moving up to attack hard and keep the VPs close.

The Israeli air force is well trained and effective, but does not have the ability in a 2 hour time frame to interdict and cause signficant losses to anything like even 10% of the battalions moving at high speed to attack them, across the Sinai, which is what I would say was happening in Jihad before the reduction we are trying. Just look at the numbers involved and try to see if the results seem reasonable, both for airplanes available - and remember there are also user controlled air strikes available - and for the targets scattered across the map.

Anyway, just my thoughts on the results, yes there should be attacks but they shouldn't make a victory for a side that has to move in travel mode impossible, or create unreasonably high levels of losses.

Rick

[FLG]

I play a lot of MC as WP and use interdiction avoidance techniques and don't suffer too many losses. Keep vehicles in deployed mode during the day. Move at night and dusk and rest a couple of turns during the day. Moving troops through forests and cities is fairly safe during the day. Try not to pass over any other units in travel mode. I also think that interdiction is lighter further from the front line, but this may just be me.

If you follow these rules you should have acceptable losses.

[Liquid_Sky]

I am on day 6 of a Normandy campaign as the germans and so far my observations are this...

At first I was a bit freaked at the amount of carnage I was suffering...but then, I noticed that the units that make it to the front, when they have a chance to rest, usually recover themselves to full strength..

Of course, the key word there is rest...some of my units just didnt have the luxury, but now, they do, so as long as the unit isnt obliterated (like some of my towed artillery) I just rest the units that are nailed until they gain at least 70% (and they usually do, just from fatigue recovery)

Not sure yet about the effect on VPs....my guess is its probably lighter then the damage to his airforce from flak..

[Volcano Man]

But in Jihad '04, which is not a stock game by the way, the interdiction is just way too high, at least for the game system/setup for that scenario. The Egyptians in particular, but also many Syrians, have a long way to travel to the front, and it really requires travel mode to do, definitely for the infantry forces. I have been in 2 games of it as the Israelis, and in the first one the Arab force suffered such high interediction losses that they really had no chance of winning - the VPs were dropping very fast due to the losses and probably would have made an Arab victory on VPs anyway totally impossible, and would have crippled an attack after the forces moved up. That game ended fairly early.

I haven't touched Jihad '04 in many years, probably more than five years actually, so if you have some better interdiction levels then I trust you will let me know and I will certainly change them. :)

The last time I played Jihad '04 as Egypt (in a team game), I didn't have too much of a problem with interdiction. But then again, maybe our opponents used every single IAF airstrike every turn.

*edit* Actually, I am only seeing interdiction at 4% / 4% with the effect at 15%. I assume you mean that the effect is too high?

[Ricky B]

That matches mine and I believe is the one I updated, I think we may have talked about it and I sent you a copy - if it is dated June, 2008 then it is. I just checked the zip that I downloaded from VolcanoMods for the Jihad scenario and the PDT in it has interdiction set at 6/6 and 25%, so I guess I set the occurence down to 4 and strength down 40%, so about a 50% overall reduction in losses I think. Feels pretty good anyway, and I have had my Israelis hit by a few decent attacks also - although the various Palestinian irregulars cause a lot more headaches.

Rick