NATO, WAPA and the indefensibility of LandJut in NGP and D85

[Hans Boersma]

Excellent thread gentlemen, thanks.

JDR, a few questions (for the 1985 period):

1. Did the motorized infantry in the Jutland Battle Group have the same armament as the mot/mech infantry in the Jutland Division?

2. Do you know the unit strength for Engineer companies?

Regarding the question whether the WP / Soviets could pull off a surprise attack I think the political dimension shouldn't be forgotten: the fact that it would be hard or impossible to surprise NATO does not necessarily mean that NATO forces would be ready. Mobilizing or moving units to defence positions would be a political decision, not a military one; and it is not unthinkable that for whatever reason NATO, or members of NATO*, would hesitate to take that step, being perceived as escalating the crisis at hand where diplomatic efforts might be perceived as not yet exhausted.

*NATO had a general warning system (Military Vigilance -> Simple Alert -> Reinforced Alert -> General Alert) but as far as I know it was, in the end, the decision of each member state to mobilize their forces or not. It is not completely unthinkable that for instance nations with strong pacifistic undercurrents like Denmark and the Netherlands would, in certain circumstances, hesitate to mobilize their forces for the reason given above; and the armies of these two countries were very mobilisation-dependent. Of course the Soviets would have to play it very skilfully (which seems unlikely in itself) since NATO would go very far to uphold unity; a situation where for instance West-Germany would mobilize and the Netherlands wouldn't would present NATO with a disastrous internal crisis. But upholding unity might also mean not taking (all) the measures that would seem appropriate from a purely military point of view. Also it is not unthinkable that NATO would hesitate to mobilize / have its forces take up defence positions for instance if a crisis had in some way been caused by NATO and it would feel responsible for reducing tension.

Cheers,

Hans

[JDR Dragoon]

Be sure however to look over our designer notes - we didn't just throw Danube Front together. A lot of work and rework into what was previously done - what player wanted from FG85 and NGP85 was added to the game as well as correction we learned about post FG85 and NGP 85 release were encorporated.

Glenn

Well I´m trying to throw you a bone here. How much of the information I offer you intend to actually incorporate in a future patch is of course up to you. But won´t you agree that the game can only get better through improving the representation of the depcited units? Even if it is just the units currently in the game and not new ones added?

[Narwan]

No - 1989 is not a good start for 1985 - there were a lot of changes happening at around '84 and '85, now that said, you're certainly welcome to do with it and the game OOB as you see fit based on your own vision.

We gave a lot of consideration to the model we used for this what if war.

Glenn Saunders

Sounds a bit like a contradiction to me. If not a good starting point for figuring out which units were available in reality that the game leaves out (like the HS) how would you call it? If there hadn't been changes from 85-89 it wouldn't be a starting point to work back from but an endpoint.

@ Boersma:
I like your winterwar additions! Your dutch OB is far closer to reality. I do feel the dutch should have independent SP-AT units (cie or even platoons like the germans) as that was the main weapon supposed to deal with the hordes of WP armor. The whole dutch concept for combat operations was linked to that. Any chance of that? ;-)

Narwan

[JDR Dragoon]

JDR, a few questions (for the 1985 period):

1. Did the motorized infantry in the Jutland Battle Group have the same armament as the mot/mech infantry in the Jutland Division?

Basically yes (although I can see, after consulting my TO&E tables, that the MOTINF units had only 1 .50 cal. machinegun pr. platoon where the M113 equipped units had 3). But the MOTINF Battalions (not the MOTINF Companies in the Brigades) usually had the US M1 Garand instead of the G3.

2. Do you know the unit strength for Engineer companies?

About 150 men or thereabout. 3 engineer platoons of about 35 men each, a Staff/supply platoon with some 25 men and an equipment platoon where all the earthmoving, bridging and minelaying equipment "lives" when it is not used by the engineer platoons with about 20 men to drive the stuff around. DF 85 has the danish engineer company at 125 men (probably representing the 3 platoons plus some men manning equipment detailed from the "Equipment Platoon"), which seems fair to me (no reason to represent every last driver, supply and staff clerk after all)

[Hans Boersma]

@Narwan:
Thanks! In DF85 the Dutch do have their AT coys at Brigade level (Paatcie), split in two sub-units of 12 TOW each. There were also AT platoons in every mechinf battalion (Paostcie); their fire values have been incorporated into the values of the parent battalion. The reason for this was that the designers, understandably in a game of this scale, wanted to limit the number of counters on the board. Also the game format is not suitable to represent units consisting of, say, six vehicles (with would be the AT platoon of a YP-408 battalion). (For that matter, the West-German AT-platoons shouldn't be there either IMHO.)
I'm working on an add-on for DF85 but progress is slow as now and then I tend to leave it alone for months. OOB is in a constant state of "near-completion"...

@JDR:
Thanks very much for the information!

[Narwan]

The west germans employed different levels of defense against WP invasion. At the lowest level there was local defense. These consisted of security and reservist combat forces (independent platoons and cie's) and 'wallmeistergruppen'. The forces were to detect and delay. By employing them at key locations the WP wouldn't be able to move through an area unhindered and undetected (as they can in the game). While not able to withstand determined attacks by larger WP formations these units could block and even defeat advance parties and recon units and functioned as an early warning regarding enemy advances. The wallmeistergruppen had les of a combat role than the other units at this level had. Their job was to create all sorts of obstacles (including explosives, mines and boobytraps) both before and after a WP advance. They were supposed to pull back into the countryside when faced with a large WP force and reappear when these had left to harrass the supply lines. The other security forces in the region had similar instructions when falling back was not a viable option. Throughout the different defense regions supply points (in bunkers) had been created in remote area's for these local forces to fall back on for resupply, recuperation and communication. They could (and in some cases would) be joined by regular (and even special) forces for 'behind the lines' operations against enemy LOC's. The OB I posted above shows how extensive these formations were.

The second level of defense were 'local' defenses of a more determined nature. These consisted of independent local HS cie's and batt's and also the independent jäger and heavy recon batt's of each bundeswehr division and (some) of the motorised battallions in the HS regiments and brigades. These usually had some degree of heavy weapons support (arty, AT, etc).
Their job was to stop advances and hold off recon in force actions and hasty attacks. WP doctrine called for the advance elements on a divisional axis of advance to conduct hasty attacks against any opposition to see if they could overcome it easily; these would be of a heavily reinforced line cie in size. A cie of jägers or HS with limited support should (in theory) be able to withstand and defeat such an initial attack. By the time the rest of the attacking battallion would form up for a determined attack the defenders would either fall back to a new position or be reinforced.
MTW cie's from the pnzgren battallions of bundeswehr formations could also be used for this (their 9 milans per cie packing a very heavy punch against attacks).

That's where the next level of defense comes in. These are the mobile manouvre elements of the HS (brigades and regiments), bundeswehr and NATO allies. These would be employed against these main enemy advances and preferably in mobile (counterattacking) or ambush operations.

It's not my intention to lecture and my apologies if these appears as such but my point is that the brigades of the bundeswehr are just one part of a much more complicated defensive system. Their role was basically offensive; counterattacking the enemy and exploiting weak flanks and not 'static' defense.
Again, the assumption in NATO was that there would be enough time to call up and deploy the necessary defenses. And from my earlier post it's obvious I agree with that assumption. So in my view for a 'realistic' representation some way would need to be found to incorporate these other defenses. Adding units would be one way but there can be other ways to depict the local delayers.'

Narwan

[Narwan]

@Narwan:
Thanks! In DF85 the Dutch do have their AT coys at Brigade level (Paatcie), split in two sub-units of 12 TOW each. There were also AT platoons in every mechinf battalion (Paostcie); their fire values have been incorporated into the values of the parent battalion. The reason for this was that the designers, understandably in a game of this scale, wanted to limit the number of counters on the board. Also the game format is not suitable to represent units consisting of, say, six vehicles (with would be the AT platoon of a YP-408 battalion). (For that matter, the West-German AT-platoons shouldn't be there either IMHO.)
I'm working on an add-on for DF85 but progress is slow as now and then I tend to leave it alone for months. OOB is in a constant state of "near-completion"...

Thanks very much for the information!

Okay, sounds good. A separate addition to NGP would be nice but I fully understand the idea of incorporating the chances into the DF game and ptached them through that way. It does mean you need two separate games to be up to date... I'll have to think about that.

I've been involved as an playtester for the WinSP games and assistent designer for some of the campaigns there. Digging through OB's to get them as realistic as possible is a big issue there. Of course the level of play (individual vehicles and squads/heavy-weapons teams) makes it easier to tweak these and go into detail. It sort of carries through in me with other games too.

I've looked at the dutch and westgermans in detail in the 80'and the more I go into it the more I understand just how well thought out their respective concepts for their armed forces was. The dutch force in the 80's for example were tailor made to face and hold off large numbers of attacking WP formations in defensive operations and limited counterattacks.
The advantage of the SP game is that you can go into detail to check if it would work. I once played a massive game where I bought an entire mech brigade in a meeting engagement against Polish attackers. It worked pretty good, even Leo-1s against T72's.

Narwan

[JDR Dragoon]

Well, let us continue where I left off yesterday starting from the organizational top:

-The Corps HQ is called "Schleswig Holstein" in the game and is based in Kiel. I propose renaming it to LandJut. and basing it in Rendsburg (which is where its constituting elements were garrisoned). It was a mobile HQ so unless WAPA manages to bomb it into slag it should be able to move way at some point. Corps HQ was almost fully staffed in peacetime with officers from various NATO countries and should be rated at "B"

The danish part of the LandJut Corps troops consisted of:

-"33. Artilleriafdeling/Nørrejyske Artilleriregiment (NJAR)" (33rd Artillery Battalion/North Jutland Artillery Regiment). A mobilization Corps artillery battalion consisting of 3 batteries of 8 1950s vintage ex-US M59 155mm "Long Tom" long range guns (24 guns in all). (I think some of the arab countries in ME 67 uses this weapon so the stats should be there). Manned by a small cadre of contract personnel in peacetime. Fleshed out on mobilization with recently released conscripts with 9 months of service behind them. Should thus be classed as "D". Should also be classed "Unreliable". Not WMD or FASCAM capable.

-"5. Ingeniørbataljon/Jyske Ingeniør Regiment (JIR)" (5th Engineer Battalion/The Jutland Engineer Regiment). A mobilization Corps unit consisting of 3 engineer companies w. 125 men each (so 375 men total). Also has some other companies, but they are administrative and supply units where the equipment and engineering ammunition resides. Should be both minelay/remove and bridging capable. Unit is motorized in trucks. Manned by a small cadre of contract personnel in peacetime. Fleshed out on mobilization with recently released conscripts with 9 months of service behind them and reserve officers and NCOs. Should thus be classed as "D". The stats for this unit can be taken from the danish Engineer Battalion already present in DF 85, since they look spot on to me (the engineer units were not fighting units. They had no LMGs and no AT weapons bigger than 66mm LAWs apart from a handfull of Carl Gustavs in the battalions "Security Squads". Plenty of .50 caliber machineguns though...)

-There was also a "Trænbataljon" (logistics battalion) from Jyske Trænregiment (JTR) (Jutland Logistics Regiment) attached, although its specific battalion number eludes me at the moment. Manned by a small cadre of contract personnel in peacetime. Fleshed out on mobilization with recently released conscripts with 9 months of service behind them and reserve officers and NCOs. Should thus be classed as "D". Whether or not to represent it with a 50 vehicle "Supply counter" is up to you.


The Jutland Division:

"Divisional HQ Unit". Not fully staffed in peacetime and reliant upon influx of reserve persoannel in order to function. Suffered under the fact that it couldn´t exercise regularly with more than a brigade at a time at best (apart from sand table exercises and wargames), leading to doubts about how it would actually have gone down if there had ever been a need to control the full division in the fiedl "fore real". Should thus be rated as "D",

-"V. Opklaringsbataljon/Jydske Dragonregiment" (JDR) (Vth Reconnaisance Battalion/Jutland Dragoon Regiment). Statwise it looks allright in the game (since its 10 "vehicles" pr. Squadron represents an amalgamation and approximation of the units aggregated combat power). The individual units should be named 1/V/JDR instead of "A/5 Recce" etc., but that is a quibble (Tank, Recon and Infantry units use latin numerals when numbering battalions. Artillery, engineers and logistics don´t. Fascinating eh? ;-)). Unit was manned by a 50/50 mix of enlisted men on running contracts and 9 month conscripts recently trained and recalled upon mobilization. It should thus be classed as "C".

-"3. Ingeniørbataljon/Jyske Ingeniør Regiment (JIR)" (3rd Engineer Battalion/The Jutland Engineer Regiment). The divisional engineer battalion. I extend the same comments here as for the 5th ENGBTN above.

-"3. Trænbataljon/Jyske Trænregiment" (JIR) (3rd Logistics Battalion/Jutland Logistics Regiment). I extend the same commets as for the LandJut Logistics battalion above to this unit.

-There was also a LRRP company attached directly to the division "Patruljekompagniet/Jyske Division" (PTRKMP/JDIV), but since their tasks were to stay behind and report I don´t think they warrant inclusion as a "Deception" capable unit. They were not meant for disruption of supply lines and rear area raids.

(Posting this now in order to save it if the forum crashes. Will continue shortly with the rest)

[JDR Dragoon]

The Divisional Artillery of the Jutland Division:

"24. Artilleriafdeling/Sønderjyske Artilleriregiment" (SJAR) (24th Artillery Battalion/South Jutland Artillery Regiment). A Battalion of 24 1950s vintage ex-US 155mm M114 guns organized in 3 batteries of 8 howitzers each. Manned by a small cade in peacetime and by recently trained 9 month conscripts and reserve officers and NCOs upon mobilization. Thus it should be rated as "D". Not WMD capable. Should be classed as "Unreliable". Stats for this weapon can be found in the Israeli OOB for the 1967 in ME67 (no DPICM bought untill the late 1980s to complement the newly upgraded M114/39s and M109a3s).

"18. og 19. Tunge Haubits Batteri/Nørrejyske Artilleriregiment" (NJAR) (18th and 19th Heavy Howitzer Battery/North Jutland Artillery Regiment). Two independent batteries of 4 M115 203mm Ex-US towed Howitzers of 1950s vintage. Should be amalgamated into a single 8 gun unit for management purposes (don´t want too many small units crowding the picture, do we?). WMD capable (that was the entire reason behind keeping these clunkers around...). Should be classed as "Unreliable". Manned by a small cade in peacetime and by recently trained 9 month conscripts and reserve officers and NCOs upon mobilization. Thus it should be rated as "D".

"14. Luftværnsafdeling/Sønderjyske Artilleriregiment (SJAR) (14th Anti-Air Battalion/South Jutland Artillery Regiment). Consisted of 3 "Let Luftværnsraketbatteri" (LLVRBT) (Light Anti-Air Rocket Battery) of 12 REDEYE lauchers each. A battery was attached to each brigade and these weapons are thus included in the intrinsic AA value of these units. Also had a 4th battery consisting of 12 40mm BOFORS L/60 semi-radar guided guns of 1950s vintage plus a close in AA platoon of 4 towed M55 .50 Quad AAMGs. As for the stats for this unit they will have to be worked out based on the above. Unit should also be classed as "Unreliable". Manned by a small cade in peacetime and by recently trained 9 month conscripts and reserve officers and NCOs upon mobilization. Thus it should be rated as "D" (The REDEYE Batteries were manned by enlisted men on running contracts though). Meant to guard rear area and divisional HQ while the REDEYEs were up front with the brigades. If this unit is too small to warrant inclusion i the game its effects might be represented by jacking up the intrinsic AA of the divisional artillery and divisional HQ by 1-2 points each and enlarging their AA radius to 1 Hex.

(posting now to prevent loss)

[Glenn Saunders]

Well I´m trying to throw you a bone here. How much of the information I offer you intend to actually incorporate in a future patch is of course up to you. But won´t you agree that the game can only get better through improving the representation of the depcited units? Even if it is just the units currently in the game and not new ones added?

Were happy with the game as we made it and don't just make quick changes based on info posted in forms which might not match our info. That doesn't make our info right and yours wrong - just different. There are many factors which come into lplay here.

Anyway - if you guys want to make changes, you have the editors and are free to do so.

Glenn