Military Engineering in PzC

Liquid_Sky · 05-06-2009, 04:22 PM,

The general nature of this simulation seems to be one of statistics. Everything is 'averaged' out, with an expected value which may come over time. So while it looks like the bridge is not being built, there will be an expected time of based on a percentage. (Two of the guys in my wargaming group are Stats guys, so I hear this sort of stuff all the time).

If the bridging was 50%, then that would mean the expected value is 2 turns. If it was 10% then it would be a day, and so on.

The zen from this, I see is that when the bridge doesnt appear to be built over a large time period, then perhaps things are occuring such as enemy air attacks, partisans or whatever, to destroy work/hinder work. What guarentee would you have if they told you the bridge would be up in a day?

Of course there are things you can do to try and increase the odds...one is to form up in a battalion to do the work, then split off the remainder when you are done.

Anyways, it seems to me so much of this simulation involves statistics, in shooting, breakdowns, replacements and engineering functions..

James Ward · 05-07-2009, 06:01 AM,

One thing Inever understood is why does an engineer have to stay with the bridge after it is built? What are they using to build them toothpicks? :)

Lien Leposh · 05-07-2009, 07:39 PM,

James Ward Wrote:One thing Inever understood is why does an engineer have to stay with the bridge after it is built? What are they using to build them toothpicks? :)

I have seen various pics in books where pontoons are anchored in place and or powered by what appear to be outboard motors against a current. Debris floating down a river, things dislodging, careless truck drivers etc can all render a bridge u/s unless you have engineers on hand to keep things just right.

While I can see the point of view about having a "progress report" for your engineering tasks, I am doubtful about how well it would work in game terms.
Take an average unit which you expect to build a bridge in say , 4 turns. You go to set up and you are told (because of the fickle finger of fate- poor roll of the dice) it is likely to take 12 turns.
I defy you to tell me that the majority of players would stop the bridging operation and reattempt to build the bridge again. In essence re rolling the dice. Now you could argue that they have surveyed the area and decided to relocate further up/downstream if a bridge, but you cant do that for rubble clearance or mine laying. The bricks still need shifting and the mines need laying.
What I would suggest as a compromise is, at the point at which you are attempting your engineering action, you notified that your base chance of success is X%, with a "confirm you want to go ahead?"
And if this info % chance could be displayed under the "laying mines" (or whatever) icon that is displayed on your unit you wont forget what your chances are.

JDR Dragoon · (This post was last modified: 05-07-2009, 10:35 PM by JDR Dragoon.)

Another point about having engineer bridges manned is to guide vehicle traffic across it. Most these bridges are quite narrow, often without handrails and also often consisting of two "tracks" (one for each set of wheels/tracks) with a whole lot of nothing in between them (apart from a free fall towards the water). If there isn´t anybody knowledgeable around to direct traffic the end result might very well be vehicles dumping into the river or getting wedged between the "tracks" of the bridgespans.

James Ward · (This post was last modified: 05-07-2009, 11:12 PM by James Ward.)

Lien Leposh Wrote:
James Ward Wrote:One thing Inever understood is why does an engineer have to stay with the bridge after it is built? What are they using to build them toothpicks? :)

I have seen various pics in books where pontoons are anchored in place and or powered by what appear to be outboard motors against a current. Debris floating down a river, things dislodging, careless truck drivers etc can all render a bridge u/s unless you have engineers on hand to keep things just right.

Are all bridges built by engineers considered pontoon bridges?

JDR Dragoon · (This post was last modified: 05-07-2009, 11:45 PM by JDR Dragoon.)

James Ward Wrote:Are all bridges built by engineers considered pontoon bridges?

Even if they aren´t you would still need a maintanence crew around to tighten the spans up at regular intervals. Driving a company of vehicles in the MLC 50-60-70 class across tends to put quite a strain on a bridge, even if it is constructed out of girders instead of pontoons.

James Ward · 05-07-2009, 11:50 PM,

JDR Dragoon Wrote:
James Ward Wrote:Are all bridges built by engineers considered pontoon bridges?

Even if they aren´t you would still need a maintanence crew around to tighten the spans up at regular intervals. Driving a company of vehicles in the MLC 50-60-70 class across tends to put quite a strain on a bridge, even if it is constructed out of girders instead of pontoons.

I find it hard to believe that every bridge repaired would require 24/7 maintenance, especially one over a stream. It's not like a blown bridge would always need to be re-built from scratch :)

**Ricky B** · 05-08-2009, 12:18 AM,

I would agree 100% James, if there was any bridge repair in the game. But there isn't - all bridging in the game is considered engineer bridging. Having the ability to repair bridges would be nice, as it was historical, but it was also very situational dependent as to how long it took or even possible to do so. So I would guess that is why there is no bridge repair itself, just putting up engineering bridges.

Rick

James Ward · 05-08-2009, 12:31 AM,

Ricky B Wrote:I would agree 100% James, if there was any bridge repair in the game. But there isn't - all bridging in the game is considered engineer bridging. Having the ability to repair bridges would be nice, as it was historical, but it was also very situational dependent as to how long it took or even possible to do so. So I would guess that is why there is no bridge repair itself, just putting up engineering bridges.

Rick

I suppose it would be hard to simulate. It's just wierd that you have to construct a pontoon bridge over a stream instead of just piling a bunch of dirt in it. Seems like a real waste of equipment :)

JDR Dragoon · (This post was last modified: 05-08-2009, 12:51 AM by JDR Dragoon.)

James Ward Wrote:I find it hard to believe that every bridge repaired would require 24/7 maintenance, especially one over a stream.

Beleive it or not, but it does (how many men it takes is another matter though), provided that it is repaired using components from the engineers bridging column. If you repair it using standard civilian type construction resources you would of course not need to watch it constantly, but if you do that you are looking at a construction time significantly longer than 1-3 turns.

Quote:It's not like a blown bridge would always need to be re-built from scratch :)

If the job has been done properly it would be necessary. The only thing standing of the birdge would be the supports on either shoreline plus perhaps some wrecked columns midstream. The span itself would be totally wrecked.