Spotting Anti-Tank Rifles

[dmattwads]

I'm playing 1-9 Kursk against my brother at the moment as the Germans, and his AT Rifles are causing me a lot of trouble with my half tracks. Why are they so hard to spot? Is there a better way to find and deal with them than what I am doing now?

[fluidwill]

Infantry screen 200-250m in front....or just power through, from observation I have a rule of thumb that each halftrack will take about 5 hits from an ATR before bailing.

[Randalll]

I try to infiltrate my ATRs into the enemy territory. If they can pass undetected they can shoot at the halftracks and tanks from the side or rear. If spotted, the AI will spin a tank to face the ATR! The russians will shoot at halftracks up to 1000 meters away. ATRs regularly attack open to vehicles.

I think your best defense is speed, your harder to hit and can get out of their zone.

[Jobu88]

Generally the only reliable way to spot them is to get your own infantry in close to them.....not always possible. Especially if AT rifles have woods to hide in, they're very hard for vehicles to spot, especially if buttoned. Pair an AT rifle with a "?" HQ and the vehicles will never spot them.

[PoorOldSpike]

I just ran this set of tests with Russian ATR's, it pretty much confirms what's already been said, namely that you have to get your units to within about 100metres of ATR's in cover to spot them.

ATR's
Of the two Russian models, the PTRS is fractionally better as the pen figures reveal.




TESTS
Pic 1 - This is the view in the Russian setup turn (the Germans can't see them). 3 x Russki ATR's are in the woods ready to open up. All units on both sides are veterans, summer midday clear weather..





Pic 2 - The ATR's decimate the German halftracks and REMAIN UNSPOTTED (just 'sound contacts') even though German infantry is a little over 100m from the ATR's. (Grid squares are 20m)





Pic 3 - In this next test the German infantry is inside 100m and SPOTS the ATR's when they open up, and returns fire on them. The halftracks also return fire now that the infantry have spotted them..




PIC 4 - For this test I've removed the German inf from the map to see how well halftracks spot.
At over 100m they CAN'T SPOT the ATR's which are ripping them to shreds, they just get sound contacts.




Pic 5 - But now I've moved the halftracks to inside 100m and THEY SPOT the ATR's and begin hosing them down. Note all 3 ATR's are now not sound contacts, they're solid targets..

[dmattwads]

Thanks to everyone (POS espeically for the tests) for your responses. At first I was hoping I would eventually spot the ATR from long distance, but I just kept getting all shot up. Getting tired of that I have decided to put my half tracks on "fast" move toward my objective (which hopefully will reveal some of the ATR's). So far speed has worked better for me, for I now have one half track where I want it to be, and the rest of the pack is closing the gap quickly, with out getting shot to pieces as they were before I told them to move fast. So I assume that the chances of an ATR hitting a half track moving at full speed ahead goes down significantly? I'll let you all know how the rest of this plays out...

[PoorOldSpike]

Speed and facing helps halftracks stay alive

PIC 1 - The halftrack is stationary and head-on to the ATR, for a hit chance of 41%..



PIC 2 - It's still head-on but now it's moving fast, making the hit chance drop to 34%..




PIC 3 - It's now stationary presenting its side, and the hit chance rockets to 53%..




PIC 4 - Now it's moving but the hit chance is still high at 44% because it's still presenting its side..



SUMMARY - Moving makes you harder to hit, and presenting head-on makes you harder still.
(Note - Same holds true with ALL types of guns v moving targets, not just ATR's v halftracks)

[PoorOldSpike]

[Randalll]

An interesting note is that when the germans invaded the russians didn't have ATRs as they were considered obsolete. They happily used BOYES anti tank rifles the british gave them.

[JasonC]

PTRS are better than PTRD because they have better ROF. The penetration difference in immaterial. Also, you can buy a veteran PTRS for 12 points - the extra hitting chance and resilience once return fire starts are well worth the single extra point of cost.

As for dealing with them, bring full panzers and close. They can't even inflict damage on a full AFV from the front, or with any serious side angle even from the sides. Stay buttoned and close in, and you will spot them without them being able to hurt you with any replies.

It is only light armor that has to avoid their LOS.

Also, beware of trying to deal with numerous ATRs in good cover by using infantry to find them and suppress them for you. They will suck away your squad ammo in no time flat, and frequently rally right through the fire. Even if you do KO one or two, the cost to the Russians is tiny, and your squad ammo will not rally.

Use vehicle MGs from full tanks if you must suppress them. Otherwise, just deprive them of targets they can hurt, and ignore them.