Japanese Infantry Guns

[Hobbes]

Hi Chris,

Good points.

I often see these things in terms of "you make one change and you get a hundred more effects you never thought of", like in the movie "The Butterfly Effect"?

We'll see what Matrix wishes to do about viewing their actions with regard to the impact on the whole?

Ed

Yes the game is so good it's a little worrying to fiddle with it too much. Any major fiddling I think should be made optional where possible.

One thing that came up in the last game I just finished was the idea
of having a slightly random duration to a scenario (something done well in other games), both myself and my opponent went all out for victory/draw in the last couple of turns of the game - not very historical but being a game what else can one do.

At least with a turn or two extra or less one may be somewhat less likely to throw in everything ahistorically to hold on to a particular VP hex.

Chris

[Jumbo]

This is for Ed and Huib,

I know it may seem unlikely to both of you that the M12 SP gun was used in direct fire on tanks. But the fact is they positively were. Was it on a daily regular basis? .. Probably not. But when deemed necassary and the most effect way to counter the threat they were. Do this. Search the internet about the M12, And look for historical accounts and discriptions as to how they were employed and used in combat. And I'm certain you will find the answer to this question. Some detailed research on your part before making your comments would have likely made your comments not necassary. I did my research and do have accounts and descriptions of the M12 being used in direct fire not only against tanks, But halftracks and infantry as well. If your search doesen't bear anything out for you. I can allways pass on a few of my sources.

Have fun with your searches and have a Merry Christmas!!

Eric

[Herr Straße Laufer]

As a whole I have a little trouble with messing with the game at all.
It's one thing to fix code, or to add a new unit, or change the abilities of existing units. :)

Variable endings are cool. I'm not so sure I'd appreciate it in CS. I think I have had some of my most memorable games where the finale turn left both sides on the edge of our seats. Loss, win, or draw both opponents were happy with the result and the intensity of getting there. :smoke:
Knowing it can be selected as a variable would be interesting, but, it could change the scenario's level in it's victory worth compared to what others have performed in the same scenario?

Now our ladder base values are going to be effected? :cheeky:

But, with Matrix, anything can happen? :chin:

[Hobbes]

As a whole I have a little trouble with messing with the game at all.
It's one thing to fix code, or to add a new unit, or change the abilities of existing units. :)

Variable endings are cool. I'm not so sure I'd appreciate it in CS. I think I have had some of my most memorable games where the finale turn left both sides on the edge of our seats. Loss, win, or draw both opponents were happy with the result and the intensity of getting there. :smoke:
Knowing it can be selected as a variable would be interesting, but, it could change the scenario's level in it's victory worth compared to what others have performed in the same scenario?

Now our ladder base values are going to be effected? :cheeky:

But, with Matrix, anything can happen? :chin:

Certainly any change to scenario length would have to be optional - and yes it could screw previous balance scores. The club's recording of scenario balance should never be underestimated, it's a wonderful feature of the club and one that allows us to pick scenarios that are almost certainly going to be fun and well balanced to play
(although every so often we have to try some new ones!).

The game I just played (Bogodukhov) had a hell of a violent end - not totally historical - but as you say it was damn good fun and
we are playing a game not a simulation.

Cheers, Chris

[Herr Straße Laufer]

This is for Ed and Huib,

I know it may seem unlikely to both of you that the M12 SP gun was used in direct fire on tanks. But the fact is they positively were. Was it on a daily regular basis? .. Probably not. But when deemed necassary and the most effect way to counter the threat they were. Do this. Search the internet about the M12, And look for historical accounts and discriptions as to how they were employed and used in combat. And I'm certain you will find the answer to this question. Some detailed research on your part before making your comments would have likely made your comments not necassary. I did my research and do have accounts and descriptions of the M12 being used in direct fire not only against tanks, But halftracks and infantry as well. If your search doesen't bear anything out for you. I can allways pass on a few of my sources.

Have fun with your searches and have a Merry Christmas!!

Eric

Hi Eric,

I've exhausted some preliminary searches and will put this one on the back burner for the sake of other issues. :eek1:
What I will say is; I'm not so sure I would want to put an M12 in a scenario with the capablility of taking out a Tiger at range, by direct fire, if in the history of the entire war less than .001 percent of all armor losses were to the M12 and it's direct fire. :coffee:

I once started to play a scenario that was supposed to be Kursk '43 and ended up quitting the game after I was annihilated by the Tiger II's, Panthers, and the entire production run of all Ferdinands made during the war that were holding down one flank, before I ran into the Panther II's, battalions of Engineers, and the 88 mm AT guns that held up the rear. (3/4's of the German TOE would not have been available until early '45, but, who is quibbling?)
I imagine some players would begin to put "favorites" in and begin to water down the scenarios in the area of historicity and balance?

Pandora's box should remain closed in certain areas of the game?

Just my two cents.

Ed

[Jason Petho]

Hi Eric,

I imagine some players would begin to put "favorites" in and begin to water down the scenarios in the area of historicity and balance?

Pandora's box should remain closed in certain areas of the game?

Just my two cents.

Ed

That is one of the key features of the Campaign Series though, the option to allow players/designers to create a scenario they find fun regardless of how historically absurd it is.

There are large number of new units coming with 1.03, some you will disagree with (and that's ok!). The beauty is these are new units, and will only be available in new scenarios.

There are a couple new features that are also coming that you might disagree with too. While they are relatively minor, they will influence how we play in some scenarios.

Since the OOB dates have been expanded to 1953 I have added a large number of post WW2 organizations and units, particularily for the Americans and Soviets. Of course, there is nothing stopping someone to recreate Kursk 43 (yet again) using T44's, T54's or what have you.

Basically, we are providing the tools to assist anyone who enjoys creating scenarios. We have no control over what they produce; that's not up to us, that's up the players. Successful scenario design will result in the scenario being played, while those that are not successful will not. It doesn't take long to figure out who the designer is that creates scenarios that you prefer to play.

Regarding the scenario selection that was available with EF in the intial release. The BETA BRIGADE came to be after the first Update. The scenarios included with offered and we added them with little testing. With the BETA BRIGADE, the scenarios we are releasing for 1.03 have been tested (primarily the WF ones).

Jason Petho

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Jason,
You may have misunderstood my intent.
I would not have minded playing a game where farce was the intent save for the fact that balance was never considered.
Don't design a scenario so that the Soviets can be beaten up with ease and say it is an exciting recreation of the battle of Kursk. I knew I had a problem fighting with my '39 Soviet infantry on KVI's with the bulk of my armor as T-34/40's, and the crack of an 88 from the Tiger II lit up my advanced armored units!
Another thing interesting was that the premise was a Soviet attack. Huh?

I would just like you guys to make every effort to see what your changes will do for the future of this game. Make too many small changes that alter the entire game and you will see a lot of players scrambling to locate their precious nine year old disks?
I'm not part of the process. I'm just a player.

I know what I like and know what I do not like. I never ask, or force, anyone to agree with me. But, I am not going to be forced to accept something that is just not right.

Some of the scenarios in the original Matrix release ended up looking like "pretty throw in's". One has 14 game reports where the German attackers have eleven victories, two are minors, and two draws.
I'd be half tempted to think the draws were reported because the winning player thought not to punish the other? Throwing out the extreme reports and the scenario had decisive balance toward the German side and was moderate in the area of entertainment/fun.

I am playing now, another scenario that is full of map and OOB errors.
I also played a few that were designed for The Blitz WF disk that I honestly cannot see when or how they were vetted. As you said, some were not?

Sorry, but I do not put designers into any box. That is specious to think that I would? I've tired some from designers that I thought were great and in anticipation of another fun match only found a crappy design and a most un-fun experience.
Doug Bevard designed some of the best and was truly lucky to have so many be good, solid designs that could be played over and over.
A few of his can be deleted from my game folder. But, it is not a "black mark" against him.

There is a huge difference between any old knucklehead making a scenario and uploading it for others to try and the ones that are released by a game company? :chin:

I would hope that any silliness dropped into a scenario by a designer should be noted up front in the scenario description?
If I see a scenario designed using future equipment I'll let you know.

Does the Matrix website contain any discussions of the future changes that I would be concerned about?

Just let me know if you are doing what Avalon Hill did to Squad Leader? ... ruined it for many of the early players, it did! :(

[Jason Petho]

Jason,
You may have misunderstood my intent.

Which is quite possible, I'm running on little sleep at the moment.

I would not have minded playing a game where farce was the intent save for the fact that balance was never considered.
Don't design a scenario so that the Soviets can be beaten up with ease and say it is an exciting recreation of the battle of Kursk. I knew I had a problem fighting with my '39 Soviet infantry on KVI's with the bulk of my armor as T-34/40's, and the crack of an 88 from the Tiger II lit up my advanced armored units!
Another thing interesting was that the premise was a Soviet attack. Huh?

Run away, run away!

I would just like you guys to make every effort to see what your changes will do for the future of this game. Make too many small changes that alter the entire game and you will see a lot of players scrambling to locate their precious nine year old disks?
I'm not part of the process. I'm just a player.

We're making an effort to try not to change anything drastically, but mostly being concerned with dealing with 10 year old problems and dealing with the complaints that have been voiced over the last decade.

Of course, there are a few elements that are added that came from wish lists from here and Matrix. Some will find them useful (a small portion of the new units were created with the von Earlmann campaign in mind - will they be used in most scenarios? probably not - but at least they are available to use.)

Can we please everyone? No. Of course not. Can we try? Hell yes, and trying we are!

I know what I like and know what I do not like. I never ask, or force, anyone to agree with me. But, I am not going to be forced to accept something that is just not right.

Of course not.

Some of the scenarios in the original Matrix release ended up looking like "pretty throw in's". One has 14 game reports where the German attackers have eleven victories, two are minors, and two draws.
I'd be half tempted to think the draws were reported because the winning player thought not to punish the other? Throwing out the extreme reports and the scenario had decisive balance toward the German side and was moderate in the area of entertainment/fun.

As they were, it was rushed out the door due to Matrix commitments. As noted above, we now have a bunch of testers that are trying to release "balanced" and "fun" scenarios.

When I find some time (HA!), I will re-evaluate the initially released scenarios.

I am playing now, another scenario that is full of map and OOB errors.
I also played a few that were designed for The Blitz WF disk that I honestly cannot see when or how they were vetted. As you said, some were not?

Not sure what happened with the WF portion of the Blitz disc.

Sorry, but I do not put designers into any box. That is specious to think that I would? I've tired some from designers that I thought were great and in anticipation of another fun match only found a crappy design and a most un-fun experience.

Yes, we all have, I would imagine.

Doug Bevard designed some of the best and was truly lucky to have so many be good, solid designs that could be played over and over.
A few of his can be deleted from my game folder. But, it is not a "black mark" against him.

Yes, a few can be deleted indeed.

There is a huge difference between any old knucklehead making a scenario and uploading it for others to try and the ones that are released by a game company? :chin:

Of course.

I would hope that any silliness dropped into a scenario by a designer should be noted up front in the scenario description?
If I see a scenario designed using future equipment I'll let you know.

Actually, one of the things I am trying to implement is some standardization. Here is a new template I am hoping to try out for 1.04.

Scenario Introduction Style Format
For the John Tillers Campaign Series
December 18, 2007
Created by Jason Petho

This document serves as a general guideline for filling out the Scenario Information when creating a new scenario for John Tillers Campaign Series. Hopefully this will provide some consistency in the future introductions.

(Designer)
Full Name

(DATE)
14 December, 1944

(INTRODUCTION)
[LOCATION]: [PLAY MODE][SCEN TYPE][DESIGNER]: SCENARIO DESCRIPTION [SPECIAL DESIGNER NOTES]


Style:
[LOCATION]
Akimovka, 20km SW of Melitopol
OR
Odessa, Ukraine
OR
Paris, France
OR
Metz, NW France

Style:
[PLAY MODE]
[H2H]-----------------------Defined as Best Played versus Human Opponent
[AXIS] --------------------Defined as Best Played as AXIS
[ALLIED] ------------------Definied as Best Played as ALLIED
[H2H/AXIS] ---------------Definied as Best Played vs Human Opponent OR as AXIS
[H2H/ALLIED] -------------Definied as Best Played vs Human Opponent OR as ALLIED

Style:
[SCN TYPE]
[HIS] ----------------------Historical - Extra effort in map/oob and scenario as close to history as possible
[HISB]---------------------Historically Based - Scenario based on a particular battle; map and oob can be fictional.
[FIC]-----------------------Fictional
[WIF]-----------------------What If situation.

Style:
[DESIGNER]
[CSL]---------------------Campaign Series Legion Designer
[BB]-----------------------Beta Brigade Member Designer
[GD]----------------------Guest Designer
[TS]-----------------------Talonsoft Original

Style:
[DESIGNER]
SCENARIO DESCRIPTION
Provide a detailed introduction the scenario situation. It is here we you have to "sell" your scenario.

Style:
[SPECIAL DESIGNER NOTES]
[NONE]------------------No special notes
[ ]-----------------------Add any note about special rules or thoughts on the making of your scenario.

Does the Matrix website contain any discussions of the future changes that I would be concerned about?

Not that I am aware of, most of the coming additions have not been released yet. I should get around to it tomorrow night though.

Just let me know if you are doing what Avalon Hill did to Squad Leader? ... ruined it for many of the early players, it did! :(

While I have heard the grumbles, I really don't know what they did (never played), so I can't comment. Sorry.

Jason Petho

[Mr. Guberman]

funny y'no

I have seen scens that are "unwinnable" from one side. ...and completely diced from the other into a decisive victory. I see no way of reconciling this. "one man's terrorist is another man's paritsan.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Ah Herr Guberman,

The terrorist willinging kills the innocent to get at his enemies. The partisan may kill accidently the innocent to get at his enemies?
I find the two dissimilar, but, this is not the time or place for that discussion? :scare:

It's the human element? I know how to play American football. I've even played some college ball. But, I would not say I can win in a game of football against the Professionals. Same positions. Same game. Different skills?
Though, if you want to get a bunch of fifty year olds, who played a little college ball, together to play a game of football I could hold my own.
Skill and chance will then become a bigger factor?

Ed