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Japanese Infantry Guns
12-18-2007, 10:41 PM,
#11
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Huib Wrote:All sorts of guns were used a lot for indirect fire historically: Tank guns, 88s, the Allies used various caliber AA guns for airbursts etc. But in the game, choices are made. It doesn't hurt to reconsider some of the current settings though, for if we would follow Hawks doctrine rigidly, these Jap guns are not to be used for indirect fire, but a lot of other ones would.

Not my doctrine, but the doctrine of the original designers of game.

Thanx!

Hawk
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12-19-2007, 06:53 AM,
#12
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Hawk Kriegsman Wrote:
Huib Wrote:All sorts of guns were used a lot for indirect fire historically: Tank guns, 88s, the Allies used various caliber AA guns for airbursts etc. But in the game, choices are made. It doesn't hurt to reconsider some of the current settings though, for if we would follow Hawks doctrine rigidly, these Jap guns are not to be used for indirect fire, but a lot of other ones would.

Not my doctrine, but the doctrine of the original designers of game.

Thanx!

Hawk

So we can discuss changing it, like all other decisions the original designers of the game made since they are apparently without reasoning.
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12-19-2007, 07:32 AM,
#13
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
First off, I would not turn to Osprey as my soul source. I find them often general in descriptions at best. The "Reader's Digest" of military history.

Second off, there is a discussion that is going on here.

Thirdly, there is need for discussion but, as in most things done on these forums please stick to the content of the responses and not "point fingers" at the responders?

I would not like to see changes made based on one person's wish or another's. If there are reasonable investigations followed by reasonable discussions that will not lead to the overthrow, or adoption of something that could change the game's balance I am all for it.

As Huib pointed out, tanks were often used in the role of indirect artillery, both in WWII and Korea. I would hesitate place the usage of them, in that role, into the game.

Back on topic. My preliminary findings on Japanese tactical doctrine was for small calibre infantry guns, below the regimental level, to be used in direct fire and were set up that way, without spotters or comms for indirect fire. If a change is made because of the capablilites of the weapon without regard to the doctrine, then you open a can of worms?
How about letting the guns fire indirectly but have all Japanese units not "spot" for the gun and it would be total scattered shot?
So far other information has been found that may point to making a change in the game. Making discussion a good thing?
If Japanese artillery exists, within the OOB, with the ability to fire indirectly then I do not see a problem with leaving things as they are. Though, it seems that the custom scenario designers may have to take care of that contingency in their own way and be aware that direct only and indirect artillery is available.

My 2 cents on the subject.
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12-19-2007, 07:53 AM,
#14
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Good points, Ed!

Jason Petho
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12-19-2007, 09:03 AM,
#15
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
I wasn't going to comment here...but I have to agree with Ed. I am familiar with the document cited above but have found no evidence to actually confirm it. Unfortunately a number of Japanese weapons fit in rather nebulously in CS. One that comes to mind outside of the 70mm guns is the "knee mortar" (grenade launcher). While I do enjoy "attempting" to use their anemic abilities in a Japanese advance...I believe the description (on F2) of the inherent strenth of the Japanese infantry unit describes the inclusion of up to 2 mortars per platoon in their combat rating...ditto Russian infantry and the 50mm mortar.

I can't really see changing the Japanese infantry guns into indirect fire weapons as it forces the Japanese to use them up close and personal as was done due to "optics and coms"...but forbid...I am the guy who hates the way banzai attacks are recreated in the series.

Just my oppinion.

Cheers
Curt
Town Drunk
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12-19-2007, 02:02 PM,
#16
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Gee whiz Ed, Osprey as your SOUL source???

I think the last couple of posts closes this off - I am happy to leave the matter as is. But a question on IJA doctrine, which has had some exposure on this post -has anyone actually read it?

Cheers
KKR
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12-19-2007, 02:45 PM,
#17
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Haven't read anything specifically on Japanese doctrine...but Ienega has a pretty good book on the Pacific war...and I have read the Official Japanese History of the Burma Campaign and the British Official History. Am out of town right now and don't have the "Japanese" name of the work but it is quite long. "Burma, the Longest Battle" (again author's name not at hand, but the British interrogator of the salient surviving Japanese immediately following the surrender) offers an amazing amount of detail on the Japanese forces and their tactical characteristics...all of these are rather tedious reads. ...and many others.

Cheers
Curt
Town Drunk
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12-19-2007, 03:42 PM,
#18
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Louis Allen- BURMA, The Longest War is not bad. And of course Slim's book.

Cheers
KKR
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12-19-2007, 09:00 PM,
#19
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Rod, the Pacific theatre was not as much read by me. Whenever I have my mind challenged I try to read up and become conversant in the topic.
Unfortunately the Holiday Season and some personal issues have taken up time and I have not hit the book stores or clicked for internet sites.

I know personally some of the writers and the publishers of Osprey, from years ago working for their parent company. As I stated earlier, they are more the "Readers Digest" of military knowledge. I am sure there is a fountain of painstakingly researched works that would do much better.
My initial google search turned up some works that I may have to add to my collection. Due to some personal issues and the holiday season, I'll have to aquire them after the first of the year.

And, I agree with Mr. Guberman! If the original designers created unit TOE's that included some weapons that may be taken out and added independently into the game, without reducing the effectiveness of the original unit, it will begin to shift the balance originally thought of by the designers? ie. 50mm mortars. Mg's as part of infantry platoon fire, etc. Or, how about those nice German tank hunter squads that can be put into a scenario with the already Panzerfaust laden Volks and Waffen infantry platoons. I could create a scenario that would drive a tank lover crazy and make anyone scratch their heads as to how any armor survived on the battlefield.

The game has many "abstracts" that every player can say, "hey, it was not done that way" ... and changes could be made but, there would be no regard for how they relate to other things that "balance the game" out?

For example, one of the deadliest weapons used by the Soviets against the Tiger I was not an AT gun, it was the 120 mm mortar firing it's simple HE shell. It has to do with the location of the radiators. Does that get modeled in the game? If you think "yes" then you will need to remember that the Soviets never really exploited the effectiveness of that weapon to specifically take out the Tiger I.
And for that matter, commanders of tank companies would hesitate to drive into concentrated artillery bombardments, which often could stop and decimate an armored advance. Do we want to add something to the game to reflect it? It was a way, throughout the war, to slow down or stop armor attacks.
Or, how about the effect of a large HE shell upon an armored vehicle? The concussion effect is not reflected in "penetration tables"? But, there are examples of tanks receiving direct fire from 105 mm shells where the spalling or concussion took the crews out of combat effectiveness. And, I read somewhere of tanks being taken out by direct fire of 150 mm HE. How often do you see that in the game?
And, there is the tactic of American SP artillery driving to within direct fire range and taking out a concrete pillbox, have you tried it in the game.

And, I won't get into the close combat tactic of shoving a rifle barrel into the vision slit of tanks to take them out. That is clearly not reflected in the game?

As stupid as it sounds the game is a "closed" and/or a self adjusting environment. If you take out, add, or change dramatically, one thing you will have another come forward that may not have been as effective.

I often say that Avalon Hill ruined a simple and fun game in Squad Leader, by making too many "realistic" rules that began to slow the game down and make it impossible to have fun while playing it.
Be careful that you do not try to make what was a simple and fun computer game. It is not intended to repeat reality as much as model the fun and flavor of battles on it's particular game scale.

And, I agree that the Banzai is way too effective in RS and is one or the reasons that I do not spend much time playing it.
One issue coming up is snipers. I hope that snipers will be left for the scale of Squad battles? ;)

As you can see, we can think beyond confines of what is "real" to what is the game that we love?

cheers
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12-20-2007, 01:31 AM,
#20
RE: Japanese Infantry Guns
Guys,

I don't like the distinction that CS makes on DF vs IDF...

For example, it was pretty much US practice to use Shermans and M10s in indirect fire roles to support attacks throughout the course of the European and Italian Campaigns.. As mentioned by others, the use of AA guns to support arty barrages by all sides... This DF/IDF is a game designer construct and a limiitation... It prevents us from recreating actual operational capability....

I agree with the comment about getting too much into detail... It can bog down the large scenarios... However, in this case, I think we should dive into discussion... the arty portion of the CS game needs work IMHO...

Personally, I'd love to see a gamer really pause before running tanks into an arty barrage... current arty system doesn't IMO capture the danger of running your tanks through artillery... on rare occassions you get a disable, but it is rare... I don't know if Matrix edition has really addressed this or not.. For example, there are many cases of tank attacks being stopping cold by IDF, but that isn't reflected in the game... I'd be happy with a "D", but that doesn't really happen either...

Original question is discussion of a limited slice of the IJA capability... the 70mm Guns which are in the IJA Infantry Battalions... This is a gun company of 122 men with 4 70mm IGs... small for battery purposes, but good enough for a little extra firepower for the infantry battalion commander...

Of course, IGs are used in a direct fire mode... after all, they do double duty as an anti-tank weapon on occassion... and prior to the bazooka type weapon, offered the only stand off bunker busting direct fire capability for the "poor beggars, the infantry".. but that doesn't mean they weren't also used in an indirect fire mode... clearly the IJA knew how to utilize indirect fire...

Theoretically, if a round comes out of any type of gun tube, it is capable of indirect fire... it could be very rudimentary or highly effective depending on the size of the round and fire control and communication complex supporting the guns...

In this case due to its direct support to an infantry battalion role, it's indirect fire capability is limited by its organizational structure and mission... which is something different than "doctrine"...

In this case, IJA Doctrine would have been constructed to address an "offensive" mind-set... and how you used units in the offensively in both offense and defense...

Early war Japanese doctrine could put these guns within 500m of the frontline to support an attack... Naturally, when you are this close they are going to be in position to conduct DF attacks because the enemy is so close they are visually acquired...

Limited communication capability of the early war and it's mission of direct support to an infantry battalion, it's full capability is mostly likely curtailed by its situation... which is to support the close infantry fight without actually killing their own guys...

This changes as Japanese dig into bunker and cave complexes in the island fighting... There they aren't as restricted by mission/organization to using the guns in DF mode because now they are dug-in, commo-wired in, and most likely utilizing pre-registered fire coordinates...

Now to translate this into CS, the problem will be determining just how effective you want this capability to be... Give the unit its capability within LOS, say 1,000 meters... and a drop off as you factor in the vagaries of Japanese artillery targeting capability in the early war... but then to reflect the change circumstances later in the war, I would almost say you would have to change the gun as the date changed...

Now, consider this across the spectrum of CS, because I'm sure we'll all have pet projects...

I see Jason being very busy... LOL...

Regards,

Jim vK
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