Another Minsk OOB question

[Rev Rico]

I've been reading of the 501 Tiger Btl fighting in the Orsha-Vitesbek area, but I can't find it in the game. Can anyone help? My eyes are going! :)

Thanks
Bob

[Ricky B]

[Glenn Saunders]

[Rev Rico]

Yes, Glenn I had already checked the Axis History site b4 posting the question. The line you quote is preceded, however, by "It was sent to the eastern front in Nov 1943 and fought at Vitebsk and Gorodok." Which made me wonder, "mmm. what was it doing?"

http://www.feldgrau.com/spa501.html adds "Decimated during the Russian Summer offensive of 1944, the remnants were ordered to reform and refit at the troop training area Ohrdruf on 3 Jul 44. The Abteilung was issued 45 Tiger IIs between 7 July and 7 August, and ordered to join Heeresgruppe Nordukraine on 6 Aug 44."

On the Feldgrau forum (http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21114) there was a discussion about its involvement with some sources listed. There was some specific details included about tank strength and where fighting took place. The 509th Tiger Btl was also mentioned but I can't find that one either; I see only 505 & 507.

And the Advanced Squad Leader historical study "Onslaught to Orsha" has the 501 involved in the fighting as described in the discussion above. It is even shown on maps and battle diagrams made using the Osprey Series and a 2001 Soviet study edit by Glantz.

So anyway that's where I was reading about this.
Bob

[Glenn Saunders]

[Rev Rico]

Glenn,
I don't presume to know better than those who worked long and hard making the game and OOB. I just ran across something in my casual reading that got me searching.
I only have the ASL study which I could scan and send but its not a primary source anyway. I guess I oculd ask the designer Chas Smith about his sources over at the ASL SZO Forum.
From what I can tell the 501 had Tiger I's and was somewhere in the area. It was overwhelmed and left to be re-equipped with Tiger II.

FWIW the Feldgrau forum included this...

According to Egon Kleine and Volkmar Kuenn: "During this bitter struggle, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 505 had paid likewise paid a heavy price. Nearly all of its tanks had been knocked out or had to be blown up...schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 also suffered heavy losses. All of its tanks were lost in the desperate defensive fighting." Following the war, a former member of sPzAbt 501, Dr. H.G. Zorn, attempted to obtain information concerning the fate of his comrades from unit rosters. The results of his efforts disclose a sad picture of those last days of June 1944. For the period from June 25 to 3 July 1944, 12 battalion tankers were listed as killed in action. Fifty-five officers and soldiers were listed as missing in action, the majority on 28 June 1944 at Orsha. Only a few of those listed as missing returned to their homeland following the war.

And then this

strength of sPzAbt. 501, 20.6.1944: 20 P VI.
23.6. used north of the Budy-crossroads (2 tanks)
24.6. used near Budy (6 tanks)
25.6. used east of the Orsha-crossroads, crossing the Dnjepr on a 24to-bridge, tanks were withdrwan in the Orscha direction
26.6. marching to the southeast.
27.6. the tanks of 2. Kompanie were destroyed in front of a bridge.
28.6. some tanks followed the 78. Sturmdivision
29.6. marching to the Druth, crossing near Teterin
30.6. Crossing the Osslik, securing of Schepelewitschi, some tanks followed the 110. ID and reached the Beresina. Some men were ordered to Minsk to take over 7 P VI.
1.7./2.7. some tanks crossed the Beresina. 3 P VI were ordered to a Polizeikampfgruppe. 4 tanks marched near to Minsk (railway Minsk-Orscha) and were fighting against russian tanks. Other tanks were destroyed east of the Beresina.
3.7. Fighting of 4 tanks near Minsk, they were ordered to Rakow, 2 tanks missed.
4.7. marching to Grodek. 1 P VI destroyed.
5.7. the last tank was destroyed. The men marched to the german lines and reached them on 23.8.1944.

And then another posted from Christopher Wilbeck's book Sledgehammers: Strengths and Flaws of Tiger Tank Battalions in World War II, "Operation Bagration in the east led to the heavy losses in heavy tank battalions. By the end of July 1944, three heavy tank battalions, namely 501, 505 and 506, had been decimated in action against the Red Army. These battalions either had no tanks left or had so few that they handed them over to other heavy tank battalions. In some instances, the few remaining tanks were so badly damaged that they were transported back to factories in Germany to be overhauled... Army Group Center commited Heavy Tank Battalion 501 immediately upon commencement of the Soviet attack, and it fought in the vicinity of the Orsha junction, along with the 14th and 256th Infantry divisions and the 78th Sturm Division, beginning on 23 June 1944. Because these units were overwhelmed and destroyed within the first few days of fighting, reports concerning this battalion is incomplete. Probably only six Tigers from this battalion ever made it back across the Berezina River, ferrying over on 1 or 2 July 1944. On 4 July 1944, the battalion received five new Tigers and fought near Minsk with several recently-repaired tanks. The battalion's last two Tigers were destroyed when they ran out of fuel on 5 July 1944 fighting near Molodechno. In less than two weeks of fighting, this battalion was completely destroyed."

Thanks
Bob

BTW Happy New Year!

[Glenn Saunders]

Sorry Bob - I can't find them in my sources.

Adair mentions the 505 in the index and they are in the OOB.

I checked the Glantz study, they are not mentioned in the index and I went to the sections on the fighting at at and around Orsha - nothing.

I looked at the Glantz maps and I would be the first to say the printting is pretty small but I don't see them there either. I'll check with Mike to see what he might have but I am not seeing them in stuff we were using to make the game and we made a pretty good effort to dig into the info.

Maybe they were their - maybe they we not. But if I don't see them in my primary sources, - that is others left them out or missed them, than I thik I'll leave it at that usless as I said, Mike has them in sources he used.

Glenn

[Glenn Saunders]

Mike has it in his info.

I guess we missed it and will add it for the next update.

Thanks for bring it up - I figure the Germans can use all the help they can get. Unfortunately these units won't appear in games in progress - at least noit PBEM Encrtyed games - but we can add them to games against the AI which might be in progress. Do let me know if anyone needs help with that.

Glenn

[Gasbag]