WW2 Artillery vs. Armor

[Tortue Agile]

For Stalingrad alt oob, I am playing actually Hoth Gamble (HtH) scenario as the Russians and I have some difficulties to understand why the Russian mot Rifle bn (who are in the tank corps) have 0/0 in hard, almost nothing in soft and 18 in assault?

[Volcano Man]

Well, you are referring to a SMG battalion which is only really useful in the assault. Historically they were with the tanks (I think riding on them?) and they provided the assault element to the armor to help them take ground. I think that if you forget about why they cannot destroy armor and instead use them in paired assaults with T-34s you will meet success.

[Volcano Man]

I forgot to add... since the battalion is equipped almost exclusively with SMGs this explains why they have no HA and their SA is low (SMG ranges are very short and used primarily in close quarters combat, hence the high assault rating).

Something happened in 1943 to raise the Soviet SMG battalions hard attack to 3 but before this they had not HA ability.

[Tortue Agile]

Hi VM,

It is hard to use them effectively combined with armor. Most of the motorized German troops have a very good moral (A), so for the assault to be effective I need to disrupt (I tried without disrupting and the Russians losses were high) the Germans units. But against those Germans moral A without a good soft unit to disrupt them I can't do anything.
If my german opponent combine his infantry with tanks (which is normal) my artillery becomes completely useless against german armor, I would like to disrupt the tanks... but it never happens.
So what are my options as Russian to stop a German attack?

- my artillery won't help against tanks (except if my opponent make the mistake to overstake) and against infantry moral A they can take big losses without disrupting.
- my infantry is useless against german panzergrenadiers.
- and when the bad visibility prevent me to use the 2hex range of my AT guns (76mm) and tanks against infantry I feel like I just have to wait for the germans to isolate my troops and destroy them at will....

[Volcano Man]

Eh... look I am sorry about that but if the single SMG battlion is in a tank brigade which is comprised mostly of armor then you need to rely on your armor that is your anti armor force. The SMG unit is for assaulting with the armor only. I don't see why everyone expects every unit in the OOB to have an anti tank killing ability. You will notice that the motorized infantry in Motorized Infantry Brigades are not SMG battalions and thus have at least a slight anti-armor ability which makes sense because these units did not have lots of tanks with them, doesn't it??

Your asking me how do you stop a German attack but it all depends on the situation. If you are holding the line with an overstretched division then it won't be possible. It is certainly not *impossible* to stop a German attack. It all comes down to quantity versus quality. The Germans definately have a qualitative advantage but if you, as the Russian, are not relying on your quantitative advantage then you may as well throw in the towel.

One alarming thing about your post is that you said that your artillery won't help you against tanks except if your opponent makes the mistake of overstacking. So, are you playing with Alternative Indirect Fire Resolution rules on? What about the other Alternative Resolution rules? If this is the case then you are NOT playing the scenario but the optional rules that I intended so it may very well be that the Germans may definately end up with a clear advantage here. The point here is that I cannot guarantee anything if you are using those rules since:

-if you are using ALT assault rules then armor is probably much more effective on assaults than the McNamara db indends them to be

-if you are using ALT indirect fire rules then your artillery is only able to fire once which removes some of their disruption capability

That said, the first thing you must realize is that your soviet infantry usually, man for man, has a much better assault rating so you have an advantage in the defense and assault. Even when you suffer great casualties you have an advantage because usually you can afford it and the Germans cannot. Most of the time the Germans run out of steam from fatigue accumulation after repeated assaults and continous advances.

The German's advantage is in direct fire and the large casualties they can cause from it. Those elite German units will run out of steam some time if they continue to assault or you bombard them with massed artillery.

Heck, I can't give anyone the magic answer. What I have seen is that with the McNamara based db the game becomes more of a tactical affair in which some people can weild the same exact sword as someone else and get seemingly unstoppable results if they are doing it right. Then, another person can have the same sword and smash or blunt it because they don't know what they are doing with it.

Case in point, I am playinga Kursk 43 game (South Battle). My opponent (he is the Russian player) stated that his previous opponent (using the McNamara based db) was rather easily defeated and gave up because he succeded in getting his armored formations totally destroyed and his drive ended quickly. Now, I can't speak for exactly how effective my German drive is but my opponent has said that it is much better than his previous opponent's. My point is that the McNamara based db seems to allow this freedom where as before most game would generally end up in the same situation each time unless something drastic was done.

[Volcano Man]

One other thing... in regards to those German armored formations that are assaulting and isolating you, when you get a chance (if your opponent leaves them alone in a hex) assault them with some massed infantry. You may suffer heavy casualties but you will usually inflict enough fatigue and tank losses that one of two things will happen:

1) Your opponent will largely stop advancing them without infantry support (unless he sends recon assets out first to size up the situation)

2) That lighting attack will begin to slow down

In my Kursk game I find that those armored cars in the McNamara based db are extremely effective at... guess what everybody... recon! :) In the intial implementation of McNamara's db I was subject to many complaints that the armored car units could not stand up armor and infantry attacks any more. Well, that is because you are only supposed to use them to find the enemy and then move away. Recon spotting rule is essential with McNamara based db as well.

Anyway, I digress. I say, without knowing your situation, that your game may very well be outside of the boundaries I predicted if you are using rules that are not suggested in the notes file. Beyond that it is resonable to consider that you will definately have to learn as you go since you may be engrained with old tactics that worked in the past.

[Volcano Man]