My thoughts on the H2H and CS.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

My argument is really a corellary to what Foul has said about the importance of the H2H process. If TheBlitz feels that the H2H is that integral to the life of the club, it's much easier to demonstrate that importance through incentives than banging merely banging a drum and hoping people follow.

You cannot create "importance of the H2H process". H2H was mostly created for CM and works well for it. TheBlitz or the members? That is the question. :smoke:

I absolutely agree that H2H created scenarios are important to the continuing health of the community. Foul is dead on in reminding folks of that importance and I don't think CS is exempt due to a huge catalog of available scenarios.

On this we simply disagree. If H2H is where the future of CS resides, we are in trouble indeed. :rolleyes: :chin:

RR

[Mr Grumpy]

Well as i said in my post there may be "special" reasons why the H2H would not be as effective for CS that as a non player i may not understand.

I agree the H2H system is somewhat cumbersome, but it has been proved beyond doubt that once you understand the systems "querks" it is actually very easy to use.

I agree that the scenario should not be rated on how good the briefing is, this is not a system breaker and good testers just rate this score in line with the other scores they give.

I agree that the system could never have foreseen that a new version of CS would appear in several years making all the old H2H scenarios redundent.

If i had the ability to change all of this i would, but i cant sorry, but i believe the system still has a useful purpose if players will put the legwork in.

I disagree that a huge chunk of points or allowing designers test scenarios (which may be totally unplayable or unbalanced) to be reported to the ladder, in my experience players who crave for these things often make poor testers and i often struggle to get any feedback from them, give me the tester who does it for the love of the game any day.

Speaking from personal experience the improvement the system has made to some unbalanced and totally one sided PzC scenarios has been amazing, we have run a couple of tourneys using only H2H approved scenarios and the feedback was 100% they were the best tourneys ever organised.

So i will end my participation in this debate (you all can continue of course) by saying the system is there, it is not perfect (what is) and by teaming up with Von Luck/Valor you might like to try it out, why not have a go and make your own mind up? :)

[Steel God]

A correction of an erroneous statement, and a comment.

First the correction. The H2H System was not designed for CM. The H2H system was created almost a decade ago by a player named "The Dragon of PanTang" and was created SOLELY for use with CS games. The H2H concept was adopted by Foul for use on the OpC Ladder only after PanTang had gone inactive and no longer supported H2H Productions. Foul later stepped up to offer H2H to all ladder communities here at the Blitz. If players on in today's CS Community don't want to support H2H, that is their decision, but the system was designed with CS in mind.

As far as supporting H2H goes, I personally have always been of a mind that scenario designers are almost more important to sustaining the PBEM hobby than players. In that vein, I have always encouraged scenario development at the Blitz, and therefore H2H. Since the earliest days we have always awarded bonus points for scenario designers who made their efforts available, and we still do; and in the recent past we have also rewarded the efforts of the folks who play test the scenarios for the designers. If those rewards need to be increased to be commensurate with other efforts I have no problem doing so. There are SO MANY ways to contribute to a community's health, and design and test are among those, and I have always been a proponent of supporting those who support the hobby. If players just don't want to use H2H, I don't have a problem with that either, it's a tool, it's there for use if you find it helpful, and if you don't, by all means, don't use it.

[Herr Straße Laufer]

My error. You are absolutely correct Paul.
You have been here a lot longer than I. :smoke:



RR

[Von Luck]

Ok all points taken i dont run the H2H although i am part of that team.Ed Pete Darren Alfons and Rod any ideas on how to improve and without to much hassle would be great.H2H was basically set up as a scenario testing area where the scenarios would be fairly even thats all as far as im aware.Correct me if im wrong.Again and to the point its there for anybody to design a scenario get members to check it out to see if its worthy of being good enough for (most)to play.Hopefully most will go by the 1.04 system and im like a lot of members maybe designers should be rewarded for their efforts but not my decision as i dont have a say in this.Yep i get annoyed poeple put forward scenarios but no one seems to take the effort to try them out good or bad.Sad responce to members putting in a lot of effort to design new ones for the benifit of all.Shoot me down but i have to have my say on this.

[Huib Versloot]

I think the current system is quite allright. It is a good way to get scenarios commented upon outside the own circle of opponents of the designer. It is also a good way to announce new upcoming scenarios. Some new scenarios that are put in the depot directly are almost NEVER played, simply because no one knows about them. Heck I even had a couple of scns in there that were played only twice in 3 or 4 years. The same is still happening to my CM scenarios. NOBODY plays them and believe me thay are not bad scenarios, not bad at all.

H2H productions is really not such a bad system. Some prefer not to use it, that's allright too.

The one thing that is really not good is that approved scenarios are stored in a separate table that is not accessable to the designer anymore. I would say just store them in the regular depot. You can always find them with the search function if you use "H2H approved" as search criterea. But then again few people seem to use that search function?

[Mr Grumpy]

The one thing that is really not good is that approved scenarios are stored in a separate table that is not accessable to the designer anymore. I would say just store them in the regular depot. You can always find them with the search function if you use "H2H approved" as search criterea. But then again few people seem to use that search function?

Yes i agree the fact that the scenario files are out of reach is a problem i am aware of and i am afraid at the moment i am unable to do anything about, i have a list of H2H improvements and this issue is high on that list.

You could always attach your updated files to a post in the CS/CM H2H sub forum(s), at least that way you could advertise their existence and the chance of players being aware of their existence would be increased? :chin:

[Herr Straße Laufer]

Truth there A de P.
But, I would not be shy to point out that those scenarios that even get passed through the H2H are rarely played.
I think that one way, in answer to John's question, to bring scenarios to the forefront, are to post them up on the CS forum. Sometimes, it seems, that having a separate H2H area keeps them ... separate? :rolleyes:

Since Paul jogged my memory on the old H2H system for CS, I think I remember that it was a select few of really solid players who took the scenarios through their paces.

I'm using the most up to date version of CS. I do hope that others are also using the supported version 1.04 to design new scenarios. I think a note of prefered assault formula would also be in order. :)



RR

[Steel God]

Since Paul jogged my memory on the old H2H system for CS, I think I remember that it was a select few of really solid players who took the scenarios through their paces.

And currently the most successful forum for H2H work is clearly OpC, which also has a dedicated team of players who do a lot of testing. This not only insures some speed, but also a measure of consistency in the testing. That model would work in any forum I believe if a dedicated team of players can be assembled and led.

As for the technical limitations of H2H, I apologize but some of them can not be overcome at the moment due to Raz's commitment to a larger Blitz project, but hopefully in 2009 can be addressed.

[Mr Grumpy]

But, I would not be shy to point out that those scenarios that even get passed through the H2H are rarely played.

Well just FYI over at OpC where players understand how much fun a H2H Approved scenario can be, we have 140 H2H approved games registered on our database which i believe is a massive thumbs up to the whole project by the players on that ladder. :)