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Moscow '42 Files Update (as at Jan 23rd, 2013)
12-05-2013, 01:38 PM, (This post was last modified: 12-05-2013, 01:43 PM by Strela.)
#27
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update (as at Jan 23rd, 2013)
(11-26-2013, 05:02 AM)ComradeP Wrote: It was mentioned before, and I think there's probably a reason for some German units releasing (well) before the Soviets in front of them, but would it be possible to consider fixing the units belonging to IX AK, XXXX AK (mot) and XXXXVI AK (mot) in place until the Soviets opposing them activate?

Initially, I thought they would need to be able to withdraw a bit in order to avoid being flanked, but as long as V AK isn't fixed the Soviets shouldn't be able to flank them in two days.

I've only been playing against the AI, of course, but you can prepare some really ugly surprises in the two days you currently have to reorganize your defensive line without any risk of being attacked.

As a more conservative suggestion, releasing 1st and 5th Guards Mortar Battalions and the 537th Army Artillery Regiment together with the Rifle divisions north of them would at least allow you to provide your troops with artillery support in case the Germans withdraw. The artillery still releases with their army HQ on the 13th, unlike the infantry which releases on the 8th to support 16th Army.

The Germans already get generous replacements, more than they would get from a 1% normal rule (because in that case, they get diminishing returns when they get stronger, and currently they always get 6, 8 or 9-10 men on average depending on battalion size) and just being able to walk away from the Soviets whilst they're fixed makes it impossible for the Soviets to apply any real pressure to those German units (if they withdraw). By the time the Soviets reach them, they'll have regained some strength and will have interlocking fields of fire and good artillery support probably.

I know I'm still greener than green in terms of actual "genuine" experience with the series as I haven't played against a human yet, but I've literally been trying to figure out a counter to this for several months and there are just too many things working against the Soviets to allow you to launch a good attack against a well defended position with units retreating when necessary. As the Soviet infantry units are slow and can only move and assault up to 1 hex range away, moving back one hex completely removes the danger of being hit by an assault.

The Axis units ~west of Moscow not being fixed gives them a big advantage in that area in case they decide to pull back a bit to shorten/rationalize their lines.

2nd Panzer Group has a couple of turns to make some initial changes to their dispositions, but the guys west of Moscow have 2 days before the Soviets can respond. That's a lot of time that if used well will cause serious problems to the Soviets.

Parts of 4th and 9th Armies being able to refit to (near) full strength before you can attack them is one thing, as like Dog Soldier said they have flanks and you don't need to assault 700-800 men battalions in bunkers per se. However, add to that the Germans being able to withdraw in good order north of 4th Army and the balance starts to shift to the Germans. It will take a few days to move the Soviet units opposing 4th and 9th Armies to areas where they can be of use, but it's possible and if you do things right you'll have breached 4th Armies northern flank and 9th Army will nearly be cut in half by a breakthrough near Kalinin. When Kalinin Front starts to get serious and the reinforcements arrive, you can at least direct them to sectors where you've broken through and you don't have to remove the ~5 westernmost 9th Army units from their bunkers when they're full strength. They'll have to withdraw at some point.

Due to the higher mobility the Germans have, if a German player withdraws he essentially forces you to fight on his terms. Any situation where you have to catch up with him greatly favours him and if he has the initiative, he can also let more units rest and refit.

Whilst the Germans have a good refit rating and good mobility for their mobile units, they can still be hit hard large concentrations of artillery (and the upgraded Katyusha's will really hurt him when massed), which is the main counter the Soviets have to the ahistorically strong Germans in case the German player withdraws. It's really quite staggering how quickly the Germans refit if left alone. You might call that a big "if", but as I've posted before: there are many sectors of the front where you simply can't do much if anything about it due to your own units being frozen.

The Soviets still have a fairly unforgiving withdraw schedule in the 16th Army area as well. Losing 2 Guards divisions whilst the Germans are quite strong before you can reach them can really hurt.

Personally, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a few minutes to think about the possibilities in terms of strength gain and preparing traps. The quality gap between Soviet and German unit is substantial enough to allow the Germans to keep the Soviets stuck in a disrupted loop if they can regain some strength. It's like the Sukhinichi I scenario all across the front if that happens, and it's ugly for the Soviets.

I'm beginning to like the rest of the balance of the scenario (although the Germans can afford to give up a lot more ground than would be historically acceptable as the points for the objectives are not very high compared to points from preventing losses) as in many cases you can prevent the Germans from refitting or at the least counter it by concentrating forces.

As another note on peculiar releases: XXXXIII AK currently releases with the rest of 2nd Panzer Group on turn 4, whilst it's also in the release list for the 14th (when the Soviets opposing them activate).

In my opinion, which may indeed not be worth much, the German replacement rate and the way the release schedule favours them in a number of sectors, which makes it nearly impossible or simply impossible to break through their bunker line is the main threat to the balance for the campaign.

Any value based on a percentage, like the replacement rate, can have unbalanced results over a longer period if enough time is available for it to reach a maximum effect (which the Germans can achieve by pulling back whilst leaving a rearguard behind, or because they're in bunkers and the Soviets nearby are fixed for several days). One of the percentage chance things the Soviets have working in their favour is that their air units are smaller and thus more numerous, so statistically speaking there is a higher chance that one of those will be available than one of the Luftwaffe's air units.

That was a long post :)

Essentially the gist of what you're asking for is that the German Panzergruppe's opposing locked Soviet Armies are also locked in place until the Soviet's launch there counterattack.

The historical rationale for not doing that is that once 1st Shock and 30th Army launched their attacks on the northern part of the German salient, Hitler called off all offensive actions and gave permission for the Panzergruppes to go on the defence.

The German forces which were strung out and in positions they could hardly supply pulled back at least closer to their supply lines. The fact that the Soviet armies on the southern side of the salient did not launch their attacks earlier is not reason enough to punish the Germans.

The southern flank, Soviet Armies were fast tracked in their release once it became obvious that the German's were in a worse state than expected.

From a game perspective this could have significant issues. If either 1st Shock or 30th Army manage to capture some of the significant towns in the north while the south of the salient is frozen then you could be looking at an unmitigated disaster.

The difference these two days make is negligible other than allowing the German to get his units that have diabolical supply issues to just being 'bad' supply issues.

That said, it is easy enough to adjust whether units are fixed by using the editor to make the changes you want.

As a final comment, Von Nev sent me a file of the campaign game he mentioned earlier in this thread. They have completed 161 turns so far and have noted a couple of things.
  • Nowhere has the Soviet got a complete breakthrough, but they are very close in a number of areas
  • There are a lot of points along the line though that have small penetrations and have the potential to collapse
  • After a week of combat, Divisions have to be rotated out and it takes 20 to 30 turns to get them to a level that they can be put back in the line. There are not enough units in reserve across the front to sustain this
  • Victory points requirements aren't high enough for the casualties being inflicted/taken
  • Soviet artillery when used enmasse is a massive killer and is generating a lot of points for the Russian player


Every campaign game is dramatically different and as we have mentioned previously I can only try and emulate the historical parameters for players and hope it plays out with some logic. If these games followed history every time there would be little reason for players to play them.

David

(11-29-2013, 12:18 AM)ComradeP Wrote: Another thing I've been wondering about since release is the Kalinin Front Offensive scenario, which lasts for a month according to the description but actually lasts only 88 turns. The majority of the Soviet reinforcements will never arrive, for example.

You got me....!

I made the call to slash the number of turns in that scenario from 250 to 88. It was just not working in its original form and we took into account what we had seen in play testing of the other smaller scenarios from that sector.

As this was late in the design cycle, I never got back and tidied the scenario up, removing items such as the superfluous reinforcements etc.

If I have a chance I will do that for the next round of updates.

David
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Messages In This Thread
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by vsadek - 11-25-2012, 07:35 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Mr Grumpy - 11-25-2012, 07:46 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Indragnir - 11-25-2012, 08:41 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by ComradeP - 11-25-2012, 08:44 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by bdtj1815 - 11-25-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Strela - 11-25-2012, 09:29 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by ComradeP - 11-25-2012, 11:30 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by 76mm - 11-26-2012, 03:34 AM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Strela - 11-26-2012, 04:15 AM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by 76mm - 11-26-2012, 04:50 AM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Strela - 12-04-2012, 01:39 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Nitram Draw - 12-11-2012, 11:05 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Strela - 12-11-2012, 11:43 PM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update - by Nitram Draw - 12-13-2012, 12:52 AM
RE: Moscow '42 Files Update (as at Jan 23rd, 2013) - by Strela - 12-05-2013, 01:38 PM

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