Here is a Stalingrad 42 question

~~Krak~~ · 03-10-2008, 08:44 AM,

Glenn
There is another problem with this scenario that I think should be addressed. That is the release of the formations under 24th and 66th Armies.

The problem is that if the Germans attack to the North of Stalingrad with mobile units the Russians get chewed up and there is not much they can do about it as the Russian Divisions are all fixed and will not release enmass. The German can methodically destroy individual groups of Russians while their comrades no more than a few hexes away sit idly by until its their turn to die. With the low visibility that predominates this game not enuf Russians will release to defend themselves. Its a turkey shoot for the Germans.

I am not sure how you can fix it, but it is a problem. The Germans can mass the bulk of their mobile units with the units already in this area and dispense with the 24th Army and 66th Army quite easily. eliminating this entire front. If the 24th and 66th Armies were to release if attacked then this ploy would not be viable. But as it stands (unless you play with a house rule preventing it) it is a failsafe plan for the Germans.

Cheers
Michael

Glenn Saunders · 03-10-2008, 12:59 PM,

Krak Wrote:Glenn
There is another problem with this scenario that I think should be addressed. That is the release of the formations under 24th and 66th Armies.

Both formation are released 100% at 1800 23 Nov. And There is no FIXES commands issue that cause the problem like the previous one. So at this point I don't see any need for adjustments to the Scn in this instance.

Of hand, I don't recall why I fixed these formations until this time but I am afraid I can't possibly plan for everything anyone might do with the scn as it has been setup.

I suppose you could make a copy of the scn with no fixed units and no releases - in fact I had considered that, but I didn't think it would work out well.

Glenn

Glenn

~~Krak~~ · 03-10-2008, 01:51 PM,

Yeah there is no problem with the release at the scheduled time. Its just a problem that will occur if the Germans do something that may not have been thought of during testing. That is an offensive Northward into a mass of fixed units that do not have a 'T' release tag. It means the Germans can encircle large pockets of fixed units and kill them with no threat from a mass of fixed Russians that just sit by and do nothing. Anyway its nothing a house rule won't fix. But I would warn any Russian players to get an agreement from the Germans before hand that such a strategy will not be employed.
cheers

Dog Soldier · 03-10-2008, 03:06 PM,

Good advice to Russian players of the S42 CG. There really no point in the German 6th Army massing against these two Russian formations historically. I would think it should not create much of an advantage for them to do so in the CG. With the German mobile forces out in the hinterlands north of the city, racking up casualty VP on the frozen Russians, does this allow the Russians to create the pocket that much earlier?

Dog Soldier

~~Krak~~ · 03-10-2008, 03:30 PM,

Not in my opinion. The Germans hold the centre position (a strategic adavantage) with v mobile units, with some good roads. They have the time to destory 24th and 66th Armies. Then turn on the Southern pincer and destory/blunt it. Competent German play with the Rumanians, the 22nd Panzer and the Germans on the Western side of the Don can hold on long enuf for the German Panzers and Inf in and around Stalingrad to dispense with the Northern front all together and then stop the Southern drive in its tracks. I am into my 5th game of the battle now and the Germans really have a lot of punch. They can concentrate all their Panzer units very quickly and really bloody the Soviets. I just think if the Northern Armies are attacked they should release. As they really are just sitting ducks. A lot of Russian artillery is due in that area too as reinforcements. I don't know what would happen there when they come on if Germans happen to be in the hexes they arrive on.

Rev Rico · 03-10-2008, 10:37 PM,

Glenn, you probably fixed these armies because they didn't join the fight until the 24th. Actually some weren't even in place until then.

Michael, to edit this, I don't think you should mark both entire armies "T RELEASE" en masse. Visibility to frontline untis would release these armies much sooner than they should be. I'd suggest doing that only with indiv formations in the rear. Maybe even spreading out the rear Rifle Divs slightly so the Germans cannot slip through. That said, if the "T RELEASE" edit is used I'd also recommend moving the T mode Russian mobile units further north since they weren't in place until a couple days later. Just in case, the Germans do decide to explore this option.

Dog Soldier, historically the only reason would be to threaten the northern prong's supply lines. A valid reason if not viable with the forces available. The Germans were so fixated on The City that any idea of a mobile battle elsewhere wasn't considered. German players can experiment with other options. I did it against Krak to remove the northern threat, plain and simple, and I was taking davantage of the scn FIXED design.

Just my thoughts,
Bob

**Ricky B** · 03-11-2008, 01:05 AM,

Speaking on historical info, one other item I picked up in a couple of recent books I read. Most importantly to the German capabilities here is that they had a severe fule shortage in and around the city even before the attack happened, greatly limiting their mobility, and that was one of the causes of v Paulus' limited response to the attacks, along with his orders to hold tight. It took a significant part of the army fuel supplies to send just one panzer division off to the west to try and stabilize the front - there was not enough fuel to send all 3 far to the west, or to strike north and then come back to the far south either.

It is tough to replicate this in the game without using explicit supply, and for such a huge, long battle that would be hard to get right also.

Rick

Rev Rico · 03-11-2008, 04:30 AM,

Ricky B Wrote:Speaking on historical info, one other item I picked up in a couple of recent books I read. Most importantly to the German capabilities here is that they had a severe fule shortage in and around the city even before the attack happened, greatly limiting their mobility, and that was one of the causes of v Paulus' limited response to the attacks, along with his orders to hold tight. It took a significant part of the army fuel supplies to send just one panzer division off to the west to try and stabilize the front - there was not enough fuel to send all 3 far to the west, or to strike north and then come back to the far south either.

It is tough to replicate this in the game without using explicit supply, and for such a huge, long battle that would be hard to get right also.

Rick

Yes, I read the same thing preparing to play the game. It seemed unusual that I'm able to mass 4 mobile divisions to counterattack and use another 3 to delay out west in the initial days of URANUS. I wonder if starting LOW FUEL would help a little.

**Ricky B** · 03-11-2008, 04:45 AM,

I was thinking the same thing after playing a team game of it, and removing the fixes on the mobile troops.

Rick

~~Krak~~ · 03-11-2008, 07:26 AM,

Yeah you could tinker with the 24th and 66th Army setup and 'T' tag and come up with a fix for the scenario I am sure. That is my point, it needs a fix. Unless your German opponent agrees not to use this ploy, as Rev has kindly agreed too :)

On the German mobility yeah its a big advantage. The Soviets are like snails in comparison.

If the Germans had fuel problems and could not move their formations around so readily why not just FIX some of them in place for a day or so. This might just delay the mass concentration of German power long enuf for the Soviets to hold on to the initiative.

All that said I really enjoy this game its one of the best CG battles of the series.

cheers