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Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Tiller Operational Campaigns (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=11) +--- Thread: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 (/showthread.php?tid=77324) |
Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - jonnymacbrown - 05-07-2026 This is an area the Poles can both hold for quite some time and dish out serious punishment. Poland has innumerable pillboxes and bunkers. Do not give them up. Make the Hun take every one of them. Krakow is Army command, GO (Corps) Slask commands the 23rd PD & 55th PD infantry divisions; so the command structure is strong. Advance Krakow Army command unit and get its command range into range with GO Slask. The 23rd is very powerful with 9,500 men and 75 guns and the 55th with 8,600 men and 36 guns. The 750 man battalions positioned in bunkers can inflict pain without suffering losses to German MG fire. Eventually you are going to lose these divisions; no way can they hold out for a retreat to the Vistula. This is a suicide mission. Use ‘em or lose ‘em. Basically Poland is superior in this area. HOLD THE BUNKERS & PILLBOXES. Do not fall back until driven out of the bunkers. Dig in wherever and whenever possible in plentiful industrial and city hexes. Abundant Polish AA units can take a toll of low-defense Luftwaffe is used properly. Try to position the copious Polish 40mm AA batteries hidden. They have low defense and are easily destroyed by enemy artillery. Do not let them come under enemy infantry fire. These units do not accrue any benefit from bunkers and pillboxes. There are a few 75mm AA but not in this area. These do benefit from bunkers. RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - mynorth - 05-07-2026 Škoda 30.5 cm Mörser M.11 Schwere Artillerie-Abteilungen 641 in the game. Guaranteed disruption of any unit positioned in pillboxes/bunkers around Chorzow/Katowice area. RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - jonnymacbrown - 05-08-2026 (05-07-2026, 04:10 PM)mynorth Wrote: Škoda 30.5 cm Mörser M.11 What is your experience? How is disruption guaranteed? RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - Steel God - 05-09-2026 Not so sure I would fight so doggedly for this area if I were Poles. In our on going P39 CG (we're on Day 7 of the invasion) GruppeSud encircled and annihilated almost the entirety of the Krakow Army (some 70,000 troops) while it fought doggedly for the Katowice area. A breakthrough along the Chorzow-Katowice axis coupled with XVIIIth Korps seizing all the crossings along the Sola and Przemsza Rivers isolated the lot and by the end of Day 4 they were rounded up. In a stand alone contest in the Slask Scenario I was well on the way to repeating the feat but when my opponent conceded the position at the end of Day 3 seeing the hopelessness of the situation. One of my mantras is that the greatest defensive territory in the world is worthless if I can't compel my enemy to attack me there. RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - jonnymacbrown - 05-11-2026 (05-09-2026, 05:34 AM)Steel God Wrote: Not so sure I would fight so doggedly for this area if I were Poles. In our on going P39 CG (we're on Day 7 of the invasion) GruppeSud encircled and annihilated almost the entirety of the Krakow Army (some 70,000 troops) while it fought doggedly for the Katowice area. A breakthrough along the Chorzow-Katowice axis coupled with XVIIIth Korps seizing all the crossings along the Sola and Przemsza Rivers isolated the lot and by the end of Day 4 they were rounded up.With all due respect to my tempered metallic deity; I don’t understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying the Germans shouldn’t attack into the Katowice complex? What? They are positioned to attack directly into it. They have a huge salient that runs deep into the heart of it. They have infiltrators neatly positioned in -50% industrial hexes right smack-dab in the Polish centre. It is true that Poland will eventually be overrun here but it takes a full scale attack taking tremendous losses if the Poles play it right. I suggest your opponent misread the situation by giving up after 30 turns especially if, as you say, you didn’t attack there. It’s all well and good to (blithely) state “the greatest defensive territory in the world is worthless if I can't compel my enemy to attack me there? If you didn’t attack Katowice what did you do? Your humble supplicant and servant jonny RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - Steel God - 05-13-2026 (05-11-2026, 12:16 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote:(05-09-2026, 05:34 AM)Steel God Wrote: Not so sure I would fight so doggedly for this area if I were Poles. In our on going P39 CG (we're on Day 7 of the invasion) GruppeSud encircled and annihilated almost the entirety of the Krakow Army (some 70,000 troops) while it fought doggedly for the Katowice area. A breakthrough along the Chorzow-Katowice axis coupled with XVIIIth Korps seizing all the crossings along the Sola and Przemsza Rivers isolated the lot and by the end of Day 4 they were rounded up.With all due respect to my tempered metallic deity; I don’t understand what you are talking about here. Are you saying the Germans shouldn’t attack into the Katowice complex? What? They are positioned to attack directly into it. They have a huge salient that runs deep into the heart of it. They have infiltrators neatly positioned in -50% industrial hexes right smack-dab in the Polish centre. It is true that Poland will eventually be overrun here but it takes a full scale attack taking tremendous losses if the Poles play it right. I suggest your opponent misread the situation by giving up after 30 turns especially if, as you say, you didn’t attack there. It’s all well and good to (blithely) state “the greatest defensive territory in the world is worthless if I can't compel my enemy to attack me there? If you didn’t attack Katowice what did you do? Your humble supplicant and servant jonny One must attack, but there are all levels of attacking of course. In both the Campaign Scenario and the Slask scenario that I played I did attack into the Katowice area, but I did not fight hard for any of the objectives I merely engaged the Polish forces to keep them interested while I completed my encirclement (excepting the penetration along the Chorzow-Katowice axis which was necessary to close the circle formed by the Sola and Przemsza Rivers) . Once I had the Polish forces isolated the bunker complexes were much easier to overcome without undo German losses. The Poles in both battles helped me accomplish this by defending that Bunker line strongly. RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - jonnymacbrown - 05-16-2026 [quote pid="459413" dateline="1778611781"] One must attack, but there are all levels of attacking of course. In both the Campaign Scenario and the Slask scenario that I played I did attack into the Katowice area, but I did not fight hard for any of the objectives I merely engaged the Polish forces to keep them interested while I completed my encirclement (excepting the penetration along the Chorzow-Katowice axis which was necessary to close the circle formed by the Sola and Przemsza Rivers) . Once I had the Polish forces isolated the bunker complexes were much easier to overcome without undo German losses. The Poles in both battles helped me accomplish this by defending that Bunker line strongly. [/quote] Ah yes. A demonstration in the centre while the flanks are turned. Hannibal anyone? I respectfully submit that strategy in itself does not guarantee victory here. The Poles have sufficient force to protect the flank for 5 days, hold the VP hexes, and inflict heavy losses. The 23rd and 55th PD are dead meat anyway. They aren't getting back to the Vistula. I submit your Polish counterpart panicked. Now then my armored host let me ask you this: You are playing German or Pole in the campaign that is in Day 7? What is the status of GO Slask and its component 23rd and 55th PD (infantry)? I take it they retreated rather than hold the bunkers. 
RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - Steel God - 05-18-2026 (05-16-2026, 12:12 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [quote pid="459413" dateline="1778611781"] Ah yes. A demonstration in the centre while the flanks are turned. Hannibal anyone? I respectfully submit that strategy in itself does not guarantee victory here. The Poles have sufficient force to protect the flank for 5 days, hold the VP hexes, and inflict heavy losses. The 23rd and 55th PD are dead meat anyway. They aren't getting back to the Vistula. I submit your Polish counterpart panicked. Now then my armored host let me ask you this: You are playing German or Pole in the campaign that is in Day 7? What is the status of GO Slask and its component 23rd and 55th PD (infantry)? I take it they retreated rather than hold the bunkers. [/quote] I am the German commander of GruppeSud in the CG (it's a 3 player game, 2 Germans, 1 Pole). The 23rd and 55th PD, indeed the entirety of GO Slask and GO Bielsko were immolated in the Katowice pocket we created. The attached image shows the jump map from that game at a point sometime between days 3 and 4 of the battle. You can see the pockets created (and by passed) in the lower left of the map, while the 10th Army Spearheads are half way to Radom. I can not categorically state that defending this area is a net negative VP wise for the Poles because a) I have only these 2 examples to base it on (too small a data set) and b) I've not yet tried my hand as the Poles (possible biased perception). But I can say with some confidence that the defenses in the area will hurt the Germans only if the German Commander obliges the Poles by attacking directly into them. Given their vastly more mobile formations, I just don't know why the German would do it, unless he is compelled to. My limited experience says there is not much the Poles can do to compel me to do that. RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - jonnymacbrown - 05-19-2026 [quote pid="459436" dateline="1779027479"] I am the German commander of GruppeSud in the CG (it's a 3 player game, 2 Germans, 1 Pole). The 23rd and 55th PD, indeed the entirety of GO Slask and GO Bielsko were immolated in the Katowice pocket we created. The attached image shows the jump map from that game at a point sometime between days 3 and 4 of the battle. You can see the pockets created (and by passed) in the lower left of the map, while the 10th Army Spearheads are half way to Radom. I can not categorically state that defending this area is a net negative VP wise for the Poles because a) I have only these 2 examples to base it on (too small a data set) and b) I've not yet tried my hand as the Poles (possible biased perception). But I can say with some confidence that the defenses in the area will hurt the Germans only if the German Commander obliges the Poles by attacking directly into them. Given their vastly more mobile formations, I just don't know why the German would do it, unless he is compelled to. My limited experience says there is not much the Poles can do to compel me to do that. [/quote] The jump map shows dramatic German brakethroughs. If you're going to lose GO Slask and GO Bielsko and all their component assests you should fight it out in all those prepared positions. All those forts, pillboxes and bunkers are there for a reason. The Poles can't fight this one out in open ground. German infantry have soft target fire values of 9 and 11. The Poles 5. Do the math. The jump map suggests the Poles are done for. Evidently they opted for some sort of strategic retreat abandoning all their forts and adjacent -50% industrial hexes. Hey- you dig in on an industrial hex and it's - 90% !! Those hexes can hold a long time. Those forward prepared positons must be held. Early in the game the Poles have c. 90 RR capacity. They have massive strength that needs to mount up on RR and get centralized. In the meantime those prepared positions must be held to hold onto space.
RE: Defense of Beuthen, Chorzow & Katowice. P-39 - Steel God - 05-19-2026 (05-19-2026, 04:15 AM)jonnymacbrown Wrote: [quote pid="459436" dateline="1779027479"] The jump map shows dramatic German brakethroughs. If you're going to lose GO Slask and GO Bielsko and all their component assests you should fight it out in all those prepared positions. All those forts, pillboxes and bunkers are there for a reason. The Poles can't fight this one out in open ground. German infantry have soft target fire values of 9 and 11. The Poles 5. Do the math. The jump map suggests the Poles are done for. Evidently they opted for some sort of strategic retreat abandoning all their forts and adjacent -50% industrial hexes. Hey- you dig in on an industrial hex and it's - 90% !! Those hexes can hold a long time. Those forward prepared positons must be held. Early in the game the Poles have c. 90 RR capacity. They have massive strength that needs to mount up on RR and get centralized. In the meantime those prepared positions must be held to hold onto space. [/quote] Nope, no strategic retreat. They fought tenaciously in their border positions (and died in them). The great thing about war gaming is we are free to try out our own strategies and can agree to disagree. Good Luck, and Good Gaming; always. |
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