Bulge 16.01s alt - Printable Version

Bulge 16.01s alt - Printable Version

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RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-23-2015

Actually it boils down to one thing in the situation where the defender already starts disrupted. Can the defender Disrupt the attacker to prevent him losing the hex? The answer is no since not only is his assault value halved there is also a morale penalty which might drag down the assault value.

So I guess I'm wrong to complain about the 0 range hard attack value given to VGD units in the game since it really doesn't come into play with assaults against disrupted units.

Here are the 2 units involved in my assault.

The pictures shows a full strength 212th Fusileer Bn but I've assumed that it probably has 550 men. I read the rules on assault several times and there are lots of things still unclear about how assault works. However its a pretty simple assault to work out (1 unit v 1 unit, no hexside terrain or special hexes involved) so I think I've worked out the factors correctly.

Looking at the final factors it looks like US Tank Bn's Final Assault Value of 1755 is not enough to Disrupt the Fusileer Bn, but the Fusileers value clearly is. I also note that the Fusileers Hard Attack adds an extra 1100.

I might be simplifying this a bit as there are differences in Defense strengths for both units, but I don't think 4 makes a great difference? I could be wrong? The assault Value is multiplied by the number of vehicle/men/gun involved and I would have thought this would apply to Defense Strength as well but I couldn't see this in the rules???

Ok what if the US tank Bn had not been disrupted but had been attacked by say a Volksgrenadier Bn from the 212th rather than the Fusileer Bn? Well this is what I see.

Again I've adjusted down the German units men figure to 590 as I believe this is a reasonable figure for his strength. He hasn't really lost much.

Well the US armour assault value now looks better, not as good as a C Morale German Fusileer Bn (admittedly almost full strength) but hopefully good enough to Disrupt the attacker......because if it doesn't I'm pretty sure the Volsgrenadier Bn will Disrupt the armour.

The 0 hard attack value adds a massive 3,540 to the assault value. (6x590)

Of course this is all theory and maybe I've read the rules wrong? Anyone out there using VGD units to assault US Tank Bns out of hexes?

By the way Rick if this is totally wrong let me know and I'll remove it. I don't want to mislead anyone wih my half baked interpretation of the rules.

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Ricky B - 06-23-2015

Your analysis seems correct overall, to me. And yes, if the defender is disrupted, they must disrupt the attackers in order to hold the hex. There is always a chance of disruption for the attacker, but it may be unlikely. A C morale unit is not likely to disrupt, but it isn't a non-negligible chance. Whereas an A morale unit is very unlikely to disrupt, unless it goes into yellow fatigue as a result of the assault, or is already down a level.

Rick

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - ComradeP - 06-24-2015

"Volksgrenadier" is a classification that doesn't directly relate to how the good the unit actually was. There were still many veterans in the Heer in winter '44-'45, not just old men and boys, which is why some of the German divisions are B quality and others C, with the recently mobilized and/or poorly trained ones at D-E quality. Amusingly, units in Normandy that had been mobilized years ago are rated D-E as well due to poor quality of the soldierly material.

Anyway, the hard attack value doesn't matter unless the alt assault rule is used. As has already been mentioned, the smallest unit can push the largest Disrupted out of its hex provided it doesn't Disrupt or die in the process (at least, I guess if the unit is killed the defender stays in place). The numerous German MG units in Panzer Battles Kursk are useful for pushing Disrupted units around, for example.

Do keep in mind that pushing large Disrupted stacks around can still be costly for the attacker, because half defence value or not, they do fight back. Soviet D quality Rifle units Disrupt easily, but if you can't actually pin them down, assaulting them is still a costly process.

The oddities of tank/gun/plane combat have been a part of the series for years, and will hopefully be changed in Panzer Battles at some point and then even more hopefully be ported back to PzC. Currently, tanks are useful for creating encirclements, but not very good at fighting any kind of unit including enemy tanks. When you post about how "high" you feel your tank losses are, keep in mind that dozens of German tanks spent 2 hours firing at your tanks to kill 5 or so through direct fire. Medium tanks are much less efficient at killing things than infantry.

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-24-2015

Turn 46 German – south

A. The Fusileer (recon) Bn from 212th VGD assaults my disrupted 11th Tank Bn. I lose 1 tank and he loses 12 men and takes the hex. And of course I retreat to the hex that I don’t want to retreat to. I think there has been plenty of discussions in the Blitz on retreating so I’ll let it rest there......

B. The Somme in the south continues. Practically every piece of artillery he has in the south concentrates on the 2-12th Infantry. I think there was some ground fire as well, my eyes glazed over for a few minutes during the replay, so not all of the 100 losses were down to artillery...........
The losses for the 2-12th were entered into the Guinness Book of Records under the ‘Most artillery losses for one unit’ section. Unfortunately the ink was hardly dry before this record was superseded by a higher figure in the north at Elsenborn.

C. Pz Lehr infantry have reappeared along with another Bn of the 5th FJD.

D. A strong tank force of Pz lehr (Px V XX and StuG X) appeared fired at 10th Armd Infantry and then disappeared. A new force them moved up mainly infantry but with 3 company sized (X) tank formartions. (PzIV,PzV,StuG) and have stayed. 10th Armd pelted with ground fire and also some artillery....although god knows where this came from. 41 men were lost but the 10th is an A rated unit and Fatigue is only 42.

E. His mobile A/A unit pulled back after last turns losses.

Situation: I’m tempted to bring up each of my tank Bn’s (8th (B) 35th (B) 37th (A)) and have a go at his armour then pull back after firing once. 40 x M4’s firing is bound to take out 2 PzIV’s /StuG’s? Multiply that by 3 Tank Bn's. I might lose 1-2 tanks total from return fire. If the rest of his armour is in hex (?) however, I might end up losing out more if Return Fire is triggered. I guess I can try one attack and see.

I will have to pull out the 2-12th. Another attack and its red fatigue.
Not sure whether to abandon Brouch and the hex north of it completely and pull back, or hang in with armour. I suspect that if I pull back he won’t follow. He has hinted that he is looking for good defensive terrain. He has this now, its just that he doesn't want me sitting next to him!

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-25-2015

Turn 46 German – Bastogne

Still pretty quiet.

A. The SS Recon unit has dug in? I thought patrolling showed if a unit was digging in? I’m pretty sure I have seen this? My patrols have never picked up any German unit patrolling? Maybe they don’t? I’ve just assumed that with Michael on the attack he doesn’t bother patrolling?
However the SS Recon unit digging in suggests that he isn’t planning to attack.....maybe?

B. A Fuhrer Begleit Bde recon unit moved up and spotted for some artillery fire. The 2-327th received moderate losses, its sitting in the open in Clear terrain. His recon unit moved off after the attack.

C. My patrols from Flamierge saw more German units which I assume are from FBB.

D. Michael brought up 2nd Panzer and used ground fire and some artillery against the 2-505th. The Bn is in Woods (IMPROVED) so that saved a few casualties. This is part of his tactics. Pick a unit and concentrate as many units as possible against it.
The main group has a Panther unit [XX] with another Panther group NE of my Bn. My patrols can see another one resting in the Woods next to his Pioneers. I’ve forgotten what 2nd Panzer starts with but 64 Panthers rings a bell so maybe that’s the whole Batallion there?

Situation: 2-327th will pull back. I will move the 2 units belonging to the 506th north to relieve 82nd units at Flamierge. 2-505th will have to pull back as well.....I think there is trouble brewing north of here. So I need to free up the 505th and maybe some more of the 82nd?

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-25-2015

Turn 46 German - La Roche

Well another surprise although not really a big one. The defense of La Roche has always been a bit thin but I've always assumed that I can man the defense quite easily and it should be easy to defend from the north. I'll have to test this theory now I guess.

It could be difficult as the 333rd Rgt (84th Div VII Corps) can't really come this far south as its Divisional HQ unit is needed in the north to keep its other Rgts in range. However I suppose they only have to defend Samree. The 505th Rgt (82nd Div XVIII Corps) plus every Engineer unit I can find can defend La Roche.

If there is an SS Division coming along behind these units then I can slow them down easily along the Nadrin-La Roche Road. The recon unit (C/32nd) sw of Baraque de Fraiture will alert me if he is moving down the main road from Samree to La Roche.

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-26-2015

Turn 46 German – Grandmenil – La Gleize

A. The A/A Korps units have moved away and a Bn of the 560th VGD has moved up. Artillery knocked out an M5 of D/40 TNK.

B. A Bn of the 18th VGD has moved in to support his A/T guns. Heavy artillery fire was called down on the 48th Armd Infantry Bn.

C. A Bn of the 560th VGD assaulted the 17th Tank Bn which started the turn already Disrupted. It was the same reult as down south at Brouch. The attacker lost 12 men and knocked out 1 tank. The 17th retreated onto the 40th Tank Bn. Before the assault he laos brought up units from 116th Pz D which must still be on the hex. (Ramort)

D. Armour from 116th continues to chase the 38th and 2-117th. (3 Panther groups, [XX],[X],[X]) He targeted the 1-117th as the 38th was already Disrupted.....and didn’t recover. The 38th is also Low Ammo but well within command range of CCR HQ/7AD. (HQ is under VII Corps HQ just below Webermont)

E. Nothing happened at La Gleize? He moved up mainly infantry, no armour. At la Gleize are I assume are two strong SS KG’s. (Sandig and Hansen) and north of this is three Pioneers units (all [XXX]) from various formations.
I can only assume his armour is moving north?

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-26-2015

Turn 46 German – Elsenborn

A. The 3rd FJD group duelled with the 2-18th again and things came out about even. However the 2-18th received some artillery plus a nasty attack from the Assault Gun group to the southwest which tripled its losses. (B)

B. The bad news was that his disrupted assault guns recovered and launched ground fire against my adjacent stacks. The 3-9th lost 44 men from one salvo alone. The 745th Tank Bn sat around and watched whilst whistling Dixie...........

C. Well we have a winner folks. The 3-9th takes the dubious DOUBLE honour of Most Men lost in 1 turn -298!, and Most Men Lost in 1 Turn From Artillery -178! NO ASSAULTS used.
The 106th Division are not happy as they held this award for only 3 days!!!!

I still can’t work out what happened. Werfer fire was taking out 22 men at a time? Artillery was killing 8 men easily? The unit is sitting in Swamp which is supposed to give -40% protection? 15 salvos (8/13/8/7/13/8/22/23/8/22/12/9/17/5/3) I’ve never seen losses like this before in the game? Something broke folks?????

Ground fire also poured into 3-9th from the Assault Gun group C as unit after unit rolled up and fired to rack up another 120 lost to ground fire. It was if the losses were doubling up, or the unit was sitting in Clear terrain with + modifiers??

D. 1st Combat Engineers also lost heavily from ground fire from German group D.

E. He moved up fresh forces and used some artillery.

F. 535th hit with assault but results not that bad. I can’t remember what it was but the unit only lost 4 guns all turn and that included a few artillery losses! The 2-393rd also took some artillery hits.

G. During the replay I saw his King Tigers moving north to Monschau but since they were deployed and not in T mode they probably didn’t get far. I would think a VGD Bn from the 326th has taken Monschau.

Funnily enough in his last email Michael was saying that he think I have artillery parity in the game now........hmmmm. Think not.

Things are not looking great here. The only plus side is that he is committing a lot of resources here. The terrain also is not great as the swamp will restrict him a bit but then again he does have plenty VGD units which are happy to plod through the stuff......not quickly admittedly.

I’ll target his group B which is also in Swamp to see what kind of artillery losses I get........

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-27-2015

Turn 46 German - Spa

All quiet on the Spa front. The German 'Death Star' moved up to Spa......and stopped. No artillery fire, nothing, zip. All that could be heard was the heavy breathing of Darth Vader....

I guess next turn he starts blasting.

Elsewhere the multi coloured 150th Bde advanced against me in several places.

US forces are a bit thin here. The 526th in Spa is Morale E, Fatigue 137 and Disrupted. I can't see it being much help to the 1-36th which is a B Morale unit.

I don't really want to use the 517th as I want this to be kept strong to act as a ledge.

I don't really want to drag the 334th Rgt (84 Div) up here either.

What I need to do is free up some of the troops from La Gleize which are not doing any useful defending at moment. Mmm yes not much of a plan.

Reinforcements have arrived in the north but its the 29th British Armoured Bde, and they are waaaaay back over the R. Meuse and will take most of the day to get here. No on map XXX Corps HQ for them. Duh. I should have subordinated them to the VII US.

There are more 3rd Armoured Div units scheduled for 12 noon, which is 3 turns away. (2 Tank Bn's, 1 Armoured Infantry Bn)

So drip feed is the only plan at moment.

RE: Bulge 16.01s alt - Plain Ian - 06-28-2015

Turn 46 Allied - south

Artillery results are shown on map.
212th Fusileers in the south opposite the 11th Tank Bn (-12)
212th/352nd VGD group D (-18 total)
Panzer Lehr group B Pioneers/infantry (-13)

11th Tnk Bn pulled back and Lt Tnk Bn sent to rear. 2-12th pulled back and defense of Brouch and Wood hex to north reorganised. I've sent 10th Armd Inf (Morale A 572 men) to Brouch. Not happy with this but nothing else available.

In north I used the 3 tank batallions of 4th armoured to attack his armour in group B. I don't like this 'gamey dancing back and forward tactic' but I did it. As expected he did have armour in hex above group B but it was only a Panther Co and a a heavy Assault Gun Co. (group A)
Results were as I anticipated. He lost 2 tanks from each tank company (Panthers/PzIV/StuG) and I lost 1 tank plus received a few Fatigue hits. Full strength M4 Batallions (Morale A/B) versus German company sized units is not a level playing field.

The Armoured Infantry Bns then attacked his infantry/pioneers in group B and inflicted reasonable losses on them but did take losses themselves.

I'm not sure what he'll do now. If he pulls back his armour and leaves Brouch alone I will pull back the 10th/19th Tank Bn's.