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Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - Printable Version +- Forums (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards) +-- Forum: The Firing Line (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=1) +--- Forum: Combat Mission (https://www.theblitz.club/message_boards/forumdisplay.php?fid=10) +--- Thread: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... (/showthread.php?tid=42041) |
RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - British Tommy - 08-31-2007 As a Brit, I must inform all CM players that at this very moment POS is boarding a ship in Plymouth with a one way ticket to Australia. :) McIvan, I believe you have a spare room? ;) RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - RedDevil - 09-01-2007 Raz indicated to me that he MIGHT be able to change some coding to the clickie system, which is mainly why I felt this thread should continue promotion of the benefits of going back to the old ways (rather than simply state it's a done deal, nothing will change etc, in my sour vinegar-like retorting manner  ).. so far there's not been much beneficial talk :) just personal gyrations of not being able to give clickies multiple times at least that's all I'm seeing so far? perhaps in my drug induced state I'm missing the contextual message and am willing to suggest it be given to me in a more clearly understandable message.Raz is a busy man doing some major changes for the site behind the scenes.. (at least he tells me he is LOL) and I'd love to see the fruits of his labors soon enough. A change to the clickie code might take minutes or months.. I don't know.. last time I said something would take time, he corrected me :P I would not mind the return to some parts of the old way, with some additions of the new way added in. However, I do feel that abuse of the system will continue to arouse subjective discussions amongst the natives no matter what give and take is managed in the end. :) The biggest grief issue is the anonymous factor, The biggest abuse issue is the buddy system and the major issue overall is security of the club being breached by making changes to the code. I care less about any personal or abusive issues than I do about the security of the club. Abuse and personal issues can be handled alot differently than security issues. Hopefully, this isn't viewed as a hard-line or dictatorship like attitude.  I'm also pointing out that the topic hasn't developed into the debate of the pros and cons of either clickie system, past personal preferences or issues. What is the benefit of allowing multiple clickies, as opposed to 1 opinion rating per member. How is the giving of more clickies promoting more posting and member interaction. What is the benefit of hiding the rep point giver from the receiving member? What methods are going to prevent abuse of the mulitple clickie giving between members who simply give them without regards to the overall purpose of the system? What is/are the fault(s) of the reputation system and is it/they correctable? What is the benefit of starting everyone over from scratch with the new system? These are some of the questions that should be under debate. RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - The Coil - 09-01-2007 RedDevil Wrote:...so far there's not been much beneficial talk :) just personal gyrations of not being able to give clickies multiple times at least that's all I'm seeing so far? I think if you go back and read my initial few posts in this thread, you get some good arguments for the benefits of multiple clickies. I shall spare everyone and not repost them again. Of course, one man's reasoned arguement is another man's personal gyration... ;) RedDevil Wrote:A change to the clickie code might take minutes or months.. I don't know... That's why I'm not optimistic about a public opinion poll producing any changes. It's going to come down to a decision by those who have to do the work. I've presented what I think are good reasons for returning to some aspects of the old way. I think there has been general agreement that the old way was better in the respects mentioned. RedDevil Wrote:I would not mind the return to some parts of the old way, with some additions of the new way added in. However, I do feel that abuse of the system will continue to arouse subjective discussions amongst the natives no matter what give and take is managed in the end. :) There never was abuse much of the old system. Just POS claiming abuse because he got red repped. Which was really just the system functioning the way it was supposed to. RedDevil Wrote:The biggest grief issue is the anonymous factor, The biggest abuse issue is the buddy system and the major issue overall is security of the club being breached by making changes to the code. Nope, not at all. I'm in complete agreement. The loss of anonymity is a good thing, reins in (potential) abuse. The buddy thing could be prevented with some sort of one clickie per person per week rule, or a must give clickies to 3 other people before you can give another to the same person rule or something. The key feature of the old system in my opinion, is the ability to give multiple clickies if a person does multiple things deserving of them... RedDevil Wrote:I'm also pointing out that the topic hasn't developed into the debate of the pros and cons of either clickie system, past personal preferences or issues. I think there's been quite a bit of discussion in this thread about the pros and cons of both systems, personal preferences, and other issues. I guess I'm not quite sure what you're looking for (not in an annoyed way at all...I just think the basic issues were laid out in the first 4 pages of this thread). I think it's telling that most of the opinions expressed were in favor of a return to multiple clickies. There haven't really been any voices in favor of the new one clickie system (except maybe you, RD...and I think there are ways to get around the abuse while retaining the benefits of multiple clickes, as I mentioned above). RedDevil Wrote:What is the benefit of allowing multiple clickies, as opposed to 1 opinion rating per member. Addressed extensively in my first two posts. RedDevil Wrote:What is the benefit of hiding the rep point giver from the receiving member? Aren't any I can think of RedDevil Wrote:What methods are going to prevent abuse of the mulitple clickie giving between members who simply give them without regards to the overall purpose of the system? I mentioned a few above, but it's probably up to whoever does the coding and what is possible. RedDevil Wrote:What is/are the fault(s) of the reputation system and is it/they correctable? That's what this whole thread has been about. RedDevil Wrote:What is the benefit of starting everyone over from scratch with the new system? Also addressed in my first two posts... RedDevil Wrote:These are some of the questions that should be under debate. They sort of are under debate, just nobody has really disagreed with my positions as I've outlined them. This is really going to be more about "what do those making the decisions and running the website find compelling as an argument". If you guys think it's worth doing, do it. If not, don't. I think I've made a strong argument for the lost features of old clickies promoting a more active board. Nobody has disagreed with this argument (again, except maybe you, RD). Anyway, I here leave it up to better men to decide. Baby was born, my time is limited... Long live clickies![/quote] RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - McIvan - 09-01-2007 Bob Millard Wrote:As a Brit, I must inform all CM players that at this very moment POS is boarding a ship in Plymouth with a one way ticket to Australia. :)I did, and would LOVE to have Spike come inhabit it, but unfortunately it burned down last night. Total loss. Most mysterious :conf: I'd be more worried, btw, if I lived in Australia :) Ermm, I'll have something more to say on the actual thread topic maybe later...got to rush off to Saturday sports just at the mo. RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - PoorOldSpike - 09-01-2007 EDIT - On second thoughts I'm butting out of this debate in accordance with the Starfleet Prime Directive.. None of my business.. :) RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - RedDevil - 09-01-2007 The Coil Wrote:[/quote]RedDevil Wrote:...so far there's not been much beneficial talk :) just personal gyrations of not being able to give clickies multiple times at least that's all I'm seeing so far? I've never said I was 100 % behind the new system. I do like a few features inclusive of the system tho. Mainly preventing buddy abuse, in which friends give each other clickies just for showing up on the forums today and anonymous clickies. I also don't know if anything can be adjusted or changed to suit a mixture of features. Asking for the trust of members to not abuse clickie giving for multiple actions of worthiness as compared to simply spreading them in good cheer for the pure act of sake, is a thin patch of ice or a slippery slope so to speak in terms of maintenance. Prevention methods would be viewed as a dictatorship in growth and subjected to circumstantial pleadings by the guilty when questioned, leading to more maintenance than necessarily needed or wanted. Many people are honest, its the few that aren't that make the headaches. So if we can give the the ability to spread clickies freely, will members abide and handle the responsibility as adults? What kind of assurances can be offered to rectify this? I don't mind the 20 or so emails a week I get about club questions and issues, but if they suddenly grow in double or triple size and are relative to clickies, then it becomes something of an irritant. :rolleyes: The anonymous issues, is certainly a mute point with the new system, nothing is sacred or hidden now. Anyone who felt that keeping the clickie givers hidden was a plus, certainly hasn't spoken up at all. As for your suggesting that the clickies system is making the posting counts here go up or down, I find that completely unsubstantiated and feel many other effects are in play for the slow down of posts in the club overall. I'll even contest that most of the members here that utilize the rep system are not affected or influenced in making their posts here by this. Claiming that a new clickie system is the downfall of our community and thus reducing members' interactions with each other is simply preposterous. Summer time, vacations, real life issues, old game syndrome, new game releases.. no mention of these "real" effects being of influence tends to steer the momentum away from the suggestive clickies are the reason theme. All older game forums are slow, any game that is 5 years old is not going to have a lively community outside of newcomers asking questions and opponent searches. What is the expectation for any forum to reasonably thrive, a year past the game release? 2 years? most don't make it 6 months. TheBlitz has been here since 1999 and all the game forums still carry a large community here. CS was a major carrier of the Club, but only now because of the Matrix re-birthing has that area livened up again. without that, only the SP and HPS forums would be alive due to new game releases. The CM forums here are consistent, but they are not dead. CM-SF was our hope to spark more life here and it has failed for the time being and I don't see it generating much life anyways. I have been wrong before tho :) To expect the CM community to get a major rise of activity without any releasing of new components is wishful thinking, to suggest it would get a rise from a clickie system revamp is plain silly. Here's my take on the questions I asked What is the benefit of allowing multiple clickies, as opposed to 1 opinion rating per member. No real benefits, as it is not substantiated that clickies increase or decrease any activity amongst members in posting or doing samaritan tasks. I feel members post when they feel like it and always strive to help each other out irregardless if they were getting a clickie or not. 1 rating of a person should be enough to show your feelings about them. In the past system, this was questioned, but not enforced upon. I'm not against multiple rewards as long as there are limits on how often they can be given by the same member. Giving out multiple clickies can be abused, but with limits, perhaps acceptable. How is the giving of more clickies promoting more posting and member interaction. If members are simply wanting clickies in order to do something around here, then it's time to shut the place down. TheBlitz was not built on clickies it was built on membership loyalty and common interests. I don't see any ties between the clickie system and Blitz livelihood. What is the benefit of hiding the rep point giver from the receiving member? I don't see any other than prevention of sparring matches exploding, which is the responsibility of moderators to stop anyways. What methods are going to prevent abuse of the multiple clickie giving between members who simply give them without regards to the overall purpose of the system? Suggestions? or perhaps this wasn't even given a thought? I saw mention there MIGHT be a way around this, but no solid ground. I know how it is handled now and would have to resort to the same methods unless other ways are more convincing. What is/are the fault(s) of the reputation system and is it/they correctable? The biggest fault lies in the misconstrued concept that rep points actually count for anything more than a common rating of how people might feel about your actions past and present. To some they are rewards for action, but this dulls them and they become worthless in terms of value, due to excessiveness. Some claim they are special, but since anyone can give them out, they are a common as potatoes. Some claim they are incentives, but they might start to look like bribes just to get things to happen with repetitive use. No one will be happy with the reps or without them, it's a typical human trait to find fault with even the simplest of things, all for the sake of debate. What is the benefit of starting everyone over from scratch with the new system? I see none, as older members have earned their reps over the last several years. To restart them in favor of new members or even because of a new system is like telling a General he's back in KP duty, because we have a new pay scale. Where do new members earn the right to obtain equal rep points without even putting forth the time and efforts of the older members who have already posted all their tips and helpful advice time and time again? Whether or not coding changes to facilitate adapting certain features of both old and new systems is possible, lies entirely in the hands of Raz :) So to close my book here I say this. Clickies are only as important as folks make them out to be. :whis: RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - Mad Russian - 09-01-2007 There is nothing wrong with the system. It's worked fine for you all this time. The ONLY thing I have against it is the not knowing who gives them. BUT that's not enough to make me leave the site. Or even make me think twice about the system as far as that goes.... Sorry Coil...I'll repent later... Good Hunting. MR RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - The Coil - 09-01-2007 PoorOldSpike Wrote:EDIT - On second thoughts I'm butting out of this debate in accordance with the Starfleet Prime Directive.. Wow...up is down, black is white, POS is being reasonable. The end is near... RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - The Coil - 09-01-2007 Mad Russian Wrote:There is nothing wrong with the system. It's worked fine for you all this time. The ONLY thing I have against it is the not knowing who gives them. BUT that's not enough to make me leave the site. Or even make me think twice about the system as far as that goes.... I assume you're talking about the old system here. No need to repent. It's not enough to make me leave the site either. But it is enough to make me think twice. And you've thought at least twice about it, unless you're saying you're posts in this thread were done without thinking... ;) RE: Why I miss old clickies: a lament... - The Coil - 09-01-2007 Ok this is my last post on the subject of clickies (I promise), and probably my last post on this forum (*sniffle*). It's been a good run. RD has spent enough of his life responding to my essays on clickies... A few final thoughts (and let me say, RD, I agree substantially with most of your previous post, and I disagree with some areas. I shall focus here on my disagreements, just because it's a lot more interesting that posting something along the lines of "yup!". And anyway, if I agree with you, I can just give you a clickie to quickly and easily let you know...oops, wait, already gave you one, so it'd be pointless to give you another. :P) RedDevil Wrote:So if we can give the the ability to spread clickies freely, will members abide and handle the responsibility as adults? What kind of assurances can be offered to rectify this? I don't mind the 20 or so emails a week I get about club questions and issues, but if they suddenly grow in double or triple size and are relative to clickies, then it becomes something of an irritant. :rolleyes: Did you get this volume of emails (aside from ones from you-know-who) under the old system? If so, I understand completely. If not, why would you expect to get them by returning to multiple clickies? RedDevil Wrote:As for your suggesting that the clickies system is making the posting counts here go up or down, I find that completely unsubstantiated and feel many other effects are in play for the slow down of posts in the club overall. I'll give you that there are other effects in play. Doesn't change the fact that clickies are one such effect. I'll address this a bit more later in this post. But really, this is an arguement that can't really be resolved beyond "I think it does, I think it doesn't". Not saying you're wrong, not saying I'm right, just saying nobody can really claim to know all the reasons for sure why the post count has gone up or down. All I'm claiming is that old clickies had a positive effect on the number of posts. I think that's an unassailable conclusion. All you need is one person to say "Yes, I posted more under the old system". We've got at least one, in $hirr$Leto. What might be up for debate is wheter or not clickies have a significant or desirable effect on post count. The first one is essentially unknowable, the second completely subjective. This is one of the reasons I have no stomach for organizing a "change the clickies" campaign. It essentially comes down to a subjective judgment call, one that is going to get made with or with out my opinion. I'm not annoyed by that, that's just the way it is. RedDevil Wrote:I'll even contest that most of the members here that utilize the rep system are not affected or influenced in making their posts here by this. I assume you meant the opposite of what you wrote in the first sentence there. And I'd agree with it in the positive, ie "most of the members here that utilize the rep system are not affected or influenced...etc." But I don't think I ever made the counter claim. I'd argue that there are some prolific posters are influenced by it (beyond just me and #hirr#Leto, too, btw). But again we're in the realm of "I think/you think". My minimal claim (and again, I think unarguable) is that some (I shan't offer a percentage) posters are influenced by it, generally in a positive manner. RedDevil Wrote:Claiming that a new clickie system is the downfall of our community and thus reducing members' interactions with each other is simply preposterous. Never claimed it was the downfall of the community, just that there was a drop in postings when the new clickie system was instituted. I think old clickies encouraged posting. There's less now that there would have been if the system hadn't been changed. And that sentence as you've written it is preposterous. It's got the cause and effect backwards...my point has always been that the new clickie system reduces the opportunities for interaction, which will thus lead to the downfall of the community. Although "downfall of the community" is a bit stronger than I'd have put it (unless I actually used those words earlier, in which case I stand by them totally. ;) Stupid long threads...you forget what you've said... ). And to me, preposterous is arguing that clickies don't affect the amount of posting that goes on here in a thread that is 8 (maybe nine by now) pages long with over 800 views. RedDevil Wrote:All older game forums are slow, any game that is 5 years old is not going to have a lively community outside of newcomers asking questions and opponent searches. What is the expectation for any forum to reasonably thrive, a year past the game release? 2 years? most don't make it 6 months... As I've said before, this is precisely the problem. Old game forums don't have much going on generally. The Blitz was different for the last six months with the rise of the clickie. It was exactly the "new thing" that spurred conversation. I bet half of the significant threads on this forum since I first typed "clicky" while taunting POS contain some reference to clickies. Maybe they're silly, but it's hard to deny they played a significant role in the life of the board for a while. How many recent threads besides this mention clickies? Not many, I'd bet you. Old clickies were fun, new clickies are less so. I'm not arguing anything deeper than that. For me (and I think at least some other people here, again, I wouldn't venture to guess how many), more fun = more posting. Since it's become less fun, I've posted less. Not because I'm greedy for clickies. Not because I'm impurely motivated. It's just not as much fun, so I do it less. Simple as that. RedDevil Wrote:What is the benefit of allowing multiple clickies, as opposed to 1 opinion rating per member. As I've said earlier, it is substantiated. It affects @hirr@Leto's posting, it affects mine. That the effect exists is unarguable. How significant that affect is is arguable. But the reality is neither you or I have anything but an intuitive guess as to the significance of the effect. So at best I think you can say "the benefits are at minimum small, but the real effect is unknown". To claim "no real benefits" is misleading at best. RedDevil Wrote:How is the giving of more clickies promoting more posting and member interaction. Once again, go back to my pickup basketball game example from my first post. What you're saying here is something like "I can't believe people want to keep score when they play basketball. If people can't just enjoy the game for the love of basketball, we should just stop playing". There's a surface logic to it, but it's way too simplistic to deal with what is really going on. It's not that anyone is saying "If you won't give me a clicky, I won't post", even though -hirr-Leto pretty much said that. But if you read carefully what he (and I) are arguing it's a bit more subtle. It's more "clickies were a fun, meaningless, silly thing to talk about. Now that they are gone as we knew them, it's less fun to post here. Therefore, we post less. Not because we're mad. Not because we thought clickies were important in any reall sense. They were just fun." People keep trying to make it into this sinister "I only post in order to garner precious clickies" thing that I don't think anyone was ever into. RedDevil Wrote:What methods are going to prevent abuse of the multiple clickie giving between members who simply give them without regards to the overall purpose of the system? Umm...I made several in response to your last post. But I'll say it again, it's pointless for me to make suggestions, because I have no idea what's feasible. I'm just pointing out problems...I leave the solving of them for those who are willing and able to. I go to my mechanic and say "My engine is rattling". He doesn't say to me "Well, do you have any idea how I should fix it? Or haven't you thought of that". He suggests a way to solve it, and I say "that sounds good". Difference is, I pay my mechanic, so I have higher expectations that he'll care about my percieved problem. I expect you (and whoever else is relevant) to make your own assessment of the problem and possible solutions, and whether or not it's even a "problem". I don't expect you or anyone else to jump when I say "this is a problem", as indeed you have not. :) I was originally just bringing it up as a "you might want to think about this" kind of thing. You have have thought about it, and apparently don't see it as a problem. Again, this is why I'm not real interested in agitating across the forums for change...it doesn't matter what we think, you guys running the site will do what you think best. Again, not complaining, just pointing out this is how it works. I think it works pretty well, given the relative health of the Blitz. I just disagree with your assessment on this particular issue. Which is fine...reasonable people disagree all the time. RedDevil Wrote:What is/are the fault(s) of the reputation system and is it/they correctable? Hehe...now that's not quite fair. You asked yourself about faults of the rep system, and answered with a (perceived) fault of those who are pro-clickie. Speaking of misconstruing, I shall say it one more time, in the hopes that this silly straw man argument shall go away: Nobody thinks rep points count for anything. I certainly don't (although I think my clickies for prizes idea should be re-looked at). I haven't seen anyone else claim they thought clickies count for much of anything. So I'm not sure who this claim is directed at. In fact, I care about them even less than that, in as much as I don't even pay much attention to them as rep points. RedDevil Wrote:To some they are rewards for action, but this dulls them and they become worthless in terms of value, due to excessiveness. Some claim they are special, but since anyone can give them out, they are a common as potatoes. Some claim they are incentives, but they might start to look like bribes just to get things to happen with repetitive use. I think it is you who are starting to take them too seriously now. I'll say it again. They were fun. They were a fun thing to talk about. Slinging them back and forth was fun. People posted more because it was more fun to post. I freely admit this is a perverting of the intent of the rep system, but it served a more valuable function than the rep system does. RedDevil Wrote:No one will be happy with the reps or without them, it's a typical human trait to find fault with even the simplest of things, all for the sake of debate. Again, I think you're overdoing it on the hyberbole. Nobody will be happy, with or without reps? We're all doomed to unhappiness? Dang... As to the second part of that sentence, well, sure. That's what makes threads like this fun. RedDevil Wrote:What is the benefit of starting everyone over from scratch with the new system? Ok, starting over may be too extreme, but it seemed to me like the simplest solution (in terms of work involved for whoever). The best solution would be to have old clickes (those given pre-change) and new ones counted in the same way...that is, you should only get one rep point from each member for old clickies. As it stands now, if someone multi-repped you before the change, they are still counted multiple times in your rep score. New ones are not. Resetting might be unfair to the old folks, but leaving it as is renders rep scores meaningless. Imagine if the that happened with ladder points: You instituted a change wherein games only gave you one third the points they used to, but kept the point totals the same from all previous games. It'd render the stats pointless. RedDevil Wrote:Where do new members earn the right to obtain equal rep points without even putting forth the time and efforts of the older members who have already posted all their tips and helpful advice time and time again? Careful, RD, you're starting to sound like you think people care about rep points. RedDevil Wrote:Whether or not coding changes to facilitate adapting certain features of both old and new systems is possible, lies entirely in the hands of Raz :) Yeah, we both keep telling each other that as if the other doesn't believe it. That's why I haven't offered many solutions. RedDevil Wrote:So to close my book here I say this. I've said this before, but I'll say it again here, because it kind of sums up my major confusion about the "why do you care about clickies" camp: I don't understand how anyone can ask that question with a straight face who posts their results on a ladder site. Why do you care about ladder points? "I don't," you respond, "I just use it for record keeping". Ok, why do you care about your record? Of what possible significance is that? Why bother to keep track? Can't you just play for the love of the game? If people are only here for the stats, we should close up the Blitz... At least, that's the analogous arguement. They're both about meaningless numbers...but it's more fun when someone is keeping score, even meaningless score. Anyway, that's all I've got to say... RD, McI, everyone else, thanks for your work making this board happen. I (and others) appreciate it. It will go on long after clickies, I'm sure... But it'd be too bad if you threw away all the fun clickies brought to the board, I think...[/quote] |
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