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(02-08-2015, 12:29 PM)Weasel Wrote: [ -> ]AI picks add some nice randomness to the game and can balance out players, but it can also really screw one player. Our first AI game Walrus had four or six batteries of 155 plus 120mm mortars and air and I had a single 81mm on map mortar, a 120mm on map mortar and a single 105 arty piece, no air. I had superior tanks but they were centurions and moved so slowly that he just clobbered them with heavies, total arty fest. After that we had to start disclosing to each other at game start how much arty we had to balance it out, but then the player who has to turn arty off loses on battle points. All in all just a mess.

Using buying guides works better, IMO.

This is our old buying guide, the % don't work anymore and the rest needs to be tweaked, something we are just starting to work on, but it lays a good foundation.

I also have a buy guide which I will dig out. I agree that AI is far from perfect but I do like having to struggle with crap units I would never have picked. That said I seem to be on the wrong side of Lady-AI-luck in both games against Leo, having narrowly lost the first as Sovs vs Brits in 53 and about to do the same as Brits in the rematch.

Some interesting numbers in your doc which pose some questions - with my long term non-Blitz oppos we have similar numbers:
Searching 130% - is this because the size 0 and elite units are uber-effective?
Why did you set rout/rally to 60% and tank toughness to 120%?
Infantry toughness 50% - same as us. With experienced players good infantry dominate the battlefield.
Arty 50% - Also agree. In fact we got so dischuffed with over-effective arty skewing every game we set it at 10-30%
Mortars - same set up, within 1 hex, but no ammo reloads.
Formations - same, but in SPWW2 we simply banned snipers other than for urban assault! Simply too invisible and too deadly.
For add-ons we use whatever is appropriate, e.g. mounted ATGM for armoured formations and dismounted for inf.
Arty we split into 3 categories: < or = 105mm, < or =155mm (WW2 150mm) and larger using a 3:2:1 purchase ratio, but always having to buy the smaller batteries first. We also have one designated observer for each off-board battery. This really does put arty in its place and means that 203mm and similar only come out in very big games.
Mortars similar with <=90mm, <=120mm and larger - regardless of infantry companies.
Same agreement on other items like airmobile, minelets, reloads etc
For flag capture this has to be done by platoon sized elements.
And this the tip of a small iceberg also covering arty observation, mg fields of fire, Z fire...
Essentially, like you and Walrus, we were trying to remove unrealistic forces and behaviour. Oh I forgot...elite infantry - one elite infantry coy could be purchased for every 2 non-elite AND in MBT one motor or APC inf coy must be purchased for every dismounted coy, except where clearly not applicable such as Sovs in Afghan. And, any game vs Israelis in 67 or 73 the Ayrabs get a 25% points bonus to balance the fact that Israelis are mostly super-human and their oppos mostly quite awful...
Best AM

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(02-08-2015, 09:32 PM)Air Master Wrote: [ -> ]

(02-08-2015, 12:29 PM)Weasel Wrote: [ -> ]AI picks add some nice randomness to the game and can balance out players, but it can also really screw one player. Our first AI game Walrus had four or six batteries of 155 plus 120mm mortars and air and I had a single 81mm on map mortar, a 120mm on map mortar and a single 105 arty piece, no air. I had superior tanks but they were centurions and moved so slowly that he just clobbered them with heavies, total arty fest. After that we had to start disclosing to each other at game start how much arty we had to balance it out, but then the player who has to turn arty off loses on battle points. All in all just a mess.

Using buying guides works better, IMO.

This is our old buying guide, the % don't work anymore and the rest needs to be tweaked, something we are just starting to work on, but it lays a good foundation.

I also have a buy guide which I will dig out. I agree that AI is far from perfect but I do like having to struggle with crap units I would never have picked. That said I seem to be on the wrong side of Lady-AI-luck in both games against Leo, having narrowly lost the first as Sovs vs Brits in 53 and about to do the same as Brits in the rematch.

Some interesting numbers in your doc which pose some questions - with my long term non-Blitz oppos we have similar numbers:
Searching 130% - is this because the size 0 and elite units are uber-effective?
Why did you set rout/rally to 60% and tank toughness to 120%?
Infantry toughness 50% - same as us. With experienced players good infantry dominate the battlefield.
Arty 50% - Also agree. In fact we got so dischuffed with over-effective arty skewing every game we set it at 10-30%
Mortars - same set up, within 1 hex, but no ammo reloads.
Formations - same, but in SPWW2 we simply banned snipers other than for urban assault! Simply too invisible and too deadly.
For add-ons we use whatever is appropriate, e.g. mounted ATGM for armoured formations and dismounted for inf.
Arty we split into 3 categories: < or = 105mm, < or =155mm (WW2 150mm) and larger using a 3:2:1 purchase ratio, but always having to buy the smaller batteries first. We also have one designated observer for each off-board battery. This really does put arty in its place and means that 203mm and similar only come out in very big games.
Mortars similar with <=90mm, <=120mm and larger - regardless of infantry companies.
Same agreement on other items like airmobile, minelets, reloads etc
For flag capture this has to be done by platoon sized elements.
And this the tip of a small iceberg also covering arty observation, mg fields of fire, Z fire...
Essentially, like you and Walrus, we were trying to remove unrealistic forces and behaviour. Oh I forgot...elite infantry - one elite infantry coy could be purchased for every 2 non-elite AND in MBT one motor or APC inf coy must be purchased for every dismounted coy, except where clearly not applicable such as Sovs in Afghan. And, any game vs Israelis in 67 or 73 the Ayrabs get a 25% points bonus to balance the fact that Israelis are mostly super-human and their oppos mostly quite awful...
Best AM

Searching 130% - is this because the size 0 and elite units are uber-effective?
-Yes, trying to deal with invisible size 0 running through and around your troops

Why did you set rout/rally to 60% and tank toughness to 120%?
-Due to infantry sucking on 120mm rounds and then rallying and kicking the crap out of the tank that attacked them. Even with these settings infantry are more likely to rally and put on their red cape than run. Best thing to do is leave a routed/retreating unit alone.


Mortars - same set up, within 1 hex, but no ammo reloads.

-We allowed the ammo boxed for mortars just because battalion mortars would normally have a resupply at hand, and with only 2 per four mortars and only reloading 2 rounds a turn it isn't a game breaker. I knew one player who put an ammo box under each tube and fired them all game long, crazy.

I think these settings were for SPMBT v3.

The way I get around elites and such is to mandate that if you buy elite infantry, than your entire force is elite, not a mix and match. So buy elite, but your force will be much smaller, and Jason and I play with no flags at all.

(02-09-2015, 05:21 AM)Weasel Wrote: [ -> ]Searching 130% - is this because the size 0 and elite units are uber-effective?
-Yes, trying to deal with invisible size 0 running through and around your troops

Why did you set rout/rally to 60% and tank toughness to 120%?
-Due to infantry sucking on 120mm rounds and then rallying and kicking the crap out of the tank that attacked them. Even with these settings infantry are more likely to rally and put on their red cape than run. Best thing to do is leave a routed/retreating unit alone.


Mortars - same set up, within 1 hex, but no ammo reloads.

-We allowed the ammo boxed for mortars just because battalion mortars would normally have a resupply at hand, and with only 2 per four mortars and only reloading 2 rounds a turn it isn't a game breaker. I knew one player who put an ammo box under each tube and fired them all game long, crazy.

I think these settings were for SPMBT v3.

The way I get around elites and such is to mandate that if you buy elite infantry, than your entire force is elite, not a mix and match. So buy elite, but your force will be much smaller, and Jason and I play with no flags at all.

Yep, no flags is also sensible. But then you have to be very clear on what the winning criterea are.

We actually just start playing and see where the battle heads, then at the end decide on what we feel the outcome was. You have to have a repoir with your opponent though, after 70+ games Jason and I agree on what makes a win.

We also got sick of main battle tanks travelling through a kilometer of woods to appear on your flank all of a sudden. With that in mind we came up with the following, it really adds to the game, makes tanks behave like tanks and allows a defender to better appreciate the ground and prepare for combat.

AFVs and Woods
1. Size 0-2 may move through any number of forest hexes
2. Size 3 may only move a total of 3 hexes in a forest (so if a forest is 5 hexes wide you cannot move 3 in, then count it as 2 out the next turn, it is 5). For example: a size 3 AFV moves into a woods 8 hexes deep, he moves three hexes into the woods. On the next turn he may move back out the 3 hexes on the same path that he came in on, but he may not move forward any additional hexes.
3. Size 4+ can only move into the edge of forests, a single hex (to represent being under canopy cover).

(02-10-2015, 06:00 AM)Weasel Wrote: [ -> ]We also got sick of main battle tanks travelling through a kilometer of woods to appear on your flank all of a sudden. With that in mind we came up with the following, it really adds to the game, makes tanks behave like tanks and allows a defender to better appreciate the ground and prepare for combat.

AFVs and Woods
1. Size 0-2 may move through any number of forest hexes
2. Size 3 may only move a total of 3 hexes in a forest (so if a forest is 5 hexes wide you cannot move 3 in, then count it as 2 out the next turn, it is 5). For example: a size 3 AFV moves into a woods 8 hexes deep, he moves three hexes into the woods. On the next turn he may move back out the 3 hexes on the same path that he came in on, but he may not move forward any additional hexes.
3. Size 4+ can only move into the edge of forests, a single hex (to represent being under canopy cover).

Now this is a great idea which never occurred to us - the terrain being a 50m abstraction but you are right...MBTs would stick to paths, so would AFVs for that matter. This is deffo worth a try.

Out of interest Cuckoo and I are trying to set up a Mar 15 Rus vs Ukr mirror using AI selected forces. The AI seems to insist on spending 2300pts of 6500 on SAMs for the Rus. Very silly, especially as neither Ukr force got any air, and the Rus got only a pair of Hinds despite the air setting being at 6. This really needs a rework!

It is really cool, I won't play without the AFV rule again.

(02-10-2015, 12:30 PM)Weasel Wrote: [ -> ]It is really cool, I won't play without the AFV rule again.

I imagine it makes a big diff, especially in appreciation of terrain and use of AFVs.

We also have a "formation integrity" rule...inf platoon elements should always try and have no more than one hex spacing between them, AFV platoons 3-4 hexes spacing. No recon with size 0 elements that are not designated recon. Also MGs have arcs of fire. And more...

This is an Interesting thread but it sounds like a bit of nightmare trying to enforce all these house rules.
Maybe it is time Gary Grigsby took note and got on with making version 2 of his game. I read somewhere in an interview with him he might just do that and perhaps that would solve some of these problems.
I feel it is such a pity this great game suffers by some of the things you point out.

Cheers,

Gordon

(02-11-2015, 12:00 AM)Gordons HQ Wrote: [ -> ]This is an Interesting thread but it sounds like a bit of nightmare trying to enforce all these house rules.
Maybe it is time Gary Grigsby took note and got on with making version 2 of his game. I read somewhere in an interview with him he might just do that and perhaps that would solve some of these problems.
I feel it is such a pity this great game suffers by some of the things you point out.

Cheers,

Gordon

It is really quite easy once you play once or twice. Uncas has picked up on it very quickly and up to now only played AI. He just printed it out and kept it beside him.

A new SP, that would be interesting but not sure what they could do to improve it except maybe make it 3D instead of 2D, that would be COOL! Same game play and all, but the units look like in the old Panzer General.