AT guns

[typhoon]

My pet peeve with the Panzer Campaign system has always been AT guns they really do not serve any purpose in the game. On the defence they are just another unit to disrupt and a minor roadblock. On the offence I have given up moving them all together the point loss for them and extra effort just serves no purpose.
  To solve this would it be possible to change the AT guns into Mortars as type so they can move forward in normal mode and enter as enemies ZOC without being blasted in T mode. I know you can draw all the enemies fire then move the AT guns but that’s painstaking.
  I know it’s very late in the day for such a change but seeing what others think of this to try to bring a little life back into this forum which has been a special place to me for many many years.

[ShipwreckedFool]

I think some of the games which incorporate AT guns into the hard attack value of infantry make the most sense. It is a bloated unit to use except for some edge cases. It makes sense to have them on the map if they are larger / more impactful like the 88s for instance, or dedicated AT BNs. But having companies spread around with each division is just a chore.

[LordDeadwood]

I guess it depends on the situation. AT guns are, in my mind at least, defensive weapons. As such, they are of limited use when your army is on the offensive. We've all had the experience of having a battery of ATG's decimated in travel mode because we just HAD to have them forward for whatever reason. I'm currently playing a France '40 campaign as the Germans and the 88's are just about the only thing that can disrupt defenders in bunkers and pillboxes, and they have to be up close, unless the bunker is not full strength. So, I pull them up next to the fortification hoping they don't get blown away before I can take them out of travel mode. Sometimes they do, but just as often they do not.

But fortifications aside, there isn't much other reason to have ATG's rolling up to the front line on the offensive. I guess I don't know if that's historical or not, but I don't agree that ATGs should move like mortars, i.e., no transport mode. That's just not realistic in my mind. That's my 2 cents.

[Steel God]

I'm with Deadwood on this one, the ATG's purpose by doctrine and training is a defensive role.  They shouldn't be used on the attack "GENERALLY".  I'll go one better, TDs, which are just mobile ATGs, shouldn't be used much on the offensive either but are a little more flexible.  Now I would have said take the ATGs out years ago before they changed the engine to allow the ATGs to enter T mode and withdraw while in contact, because before that they were essentially deployed once and died after contact, but now they can be used in a delaying action capacity very well.  Like Deadwood I happen to be playing F40 (I actually am playing 2 CGs of it concurrently, once as French and once as German) and with the Germans in particular I have used the ATGs to get effect in screening gaps in the lines and being mobile to isolate and contain bypassed pockets. I would certainly miss the units if I didn't have them.  Aside from which my biggest issue with rolling the ATGs into the infantry battalions would be the return of 1 hex range hard vale attack numbers for all the infantry units which would put us back in the dark ages (IMHO). 

I get the complaint, they can be time consuming to manage, but they do serve a purpose and sometimes the real problem is we hate the idea of not using a counter and end up using it in a manner that leaves them vulnerable.

[agmoss99]

They are the bane of my life. In Normandy they got shot up in T mode and the few survivors on the front line made no difference whatsoever. Just good points for the opponent really.

[typhoon]

Great to see a pulse beating here. Have to agree on the bunker busting and on the dark ages of hard attack values in the inf units. So it is what it is but would be good if I could find an easier way to move them both forwards and backwards without having to get them devastated whilst in T mode. Also as a side note it would stop the A.i leaving them visible in T mode and allowing me the easy points

[Steel God]

Great to see a pulse beating here. Have to agree on the bunker busting and on the dark ages of hard attack values in the inf units. So it is what it is but would be good if I could find an easier way to move them both forwards and backwards without having to get them devastated whilst in T mode. Also as a side note it would stop the A.i leaving them visible in T mode and allowing me the easy points

The absolute best use of ATGs that I have found is to employ them as Rommel did.  Deploy them in large numbers, preferably in prepared positions or at least good cover, and then get the enemy to pursue your retreating forces onto the ATG line.  ATGs can maul some guys when fired in concentrated volleys, and will quickly teach a player to not lead with his main armor but let those recon boys earn their pay. 

And the AI......uhhhh, yeah, that is war gaming masturbation - we just don't need to talk about that in polite company.  

[typhoon]

Have to scratch that itch somehow and these days I’m just not reliable enough to PBEM the full Campaigns which I love so much. And polite company never!!!!!!

[Mr Grumpy]

..... but would be good if I could find an easier way to move them both forwards and backwards without having to get them devastated whilst in T mode. 

Well I have not played PzC for many years as I am a dedicated FWWC player now, so excuse me if I am talking rubbish, BUT I remember this issue being discussed at length in the past and I know from RickyB that it was discussed in person with JT at a TillerCon many years back, the result of that feedback to JT was this special rule as shown on page 35 of the user manual...........

"Special AT Gun Egress
Towed AT Guns are a defensive weapon and must be able to withdraw in the face of an enemy attack to be useful. Given default rules, many times a towed AT Gun unit which changes to Travel Mode to withdraw will be fired upon by enemy Opportunity Fire and this can often result in Disruption, preventing the unit from withdrawing. As a result, there is a special rule that says that a towed AT gun unit which changes to Travel Mode without having expended any movement points prior to that change will not trigger Opportunity Fire"

So unless I am misunderstanding this you can withdraw an AT gun without it being hit by opportunity fire as long as the AT gun has its full movement allowance (i.e. you don't fire once and then change to T mode).

As I say as I don't play PzC so this might not be the answer to Typhoon's prayers that I think it is!!  

[Steel God]

..... but would be good if I could find an easier way to move them both forwards and backwards without having to get them devastated whilst in T mode. 

Well I have not played PzC for many years as I am a dedicated FWWC player now, so excuse me if I am talking rubbish, BUT I remember this issue being discussed at length in the past and I know from RickyB that it was discussed in person with JT at a TillerCon many years back, the result of that feedback to JT was this special rule as shown on page 35 of the user manual...........

"Special AT Gun Egress
Towed AT Guns are a defensive weapon and must be able to withdraw in the face of an enemy attack to be useful. Given default rules, many times a towed AT Gun unit which changes to Travel Mode to withdraw will be fired upon by enemy Opportunity Fire and this can often result in Disruption, preventing the unit from withdrawing. As a result, there is a special rule that says that a towed AT gun unit which changes to Travel Mode without having expended any movement points prior to that change will not trigger Opportunity Fire"

So unless I am misunderstanding this you can withdraw an AT gun without it being hit by opportunity fire as long as the AT gun has its full movement allowance (i.e. you don't fire once and then change to T mode).

As I say as I don't play PzC so this might not be the answer to Typhoon's prayers that I think it is!!  

Nah Darran, we all know the rule, the complaint is more centered on having to manage a whole slew of counters that are VERY fragile on the offense.  They put it in FWWC terms:  “why can’t these damn MGs be better on offense”.  

But seriously- “I don’t play PzC” — jeez man, I love Scotch but if you offer me a Martini I’m gonna drink it.