France '40 - Panzer-Division composition

[BigDuke66]

Hi
for now I have played some of the Prucha scenarios that cover Holland and Belgium and I think that the German Panzer-Divisions used there, and maybe others too I need to check that first, need some adjustments.
While the 9. Panzer-Division looks fine the 3. and 4. do not. The tank inventory I found for them on 10th May 1940(from various sources):
3. PD
PzKpfw I 117
PzKpfw II 129
PzKpfw III 42
PzKpfw IV 26
PzBefh 27

4. PD
PzKpfw I 135
PzKpfw II 105
PzKpfw III 40
PzKpfw IV 24
PzBefh 10
Despite being more numerous we do not see any Pz III units but only mixed Pz I+II and Pz II+IV companies.
This removes a lot fast & armored AT capability from these 2 divisions, what is really bad as they are the only ones going up against an armor concentration of the enemy in form of the French 2e and 3e Division Légère Mécanique.
These 2 division have about this strength:
176 SOMUA S35, 172 Hotchkiss H35, 66 AMR 35 + 66 H35 and 88 P 178
So about 340 of the better French tanks(SOMUA S35 & Hotchkiss H35) go head-to-head with the Germans whose only comparable tank is depicted in a mixed Pz II+IV company per Abteilung(bat.) what makes 4 per division with each of about 17 vehicles, so about 136 for both PD.
They fight out the Battle of Hannut & Battle of Gembloux depicted in game by the #0512_01_Gembloux_Gap_Prucha scenario. That scenario has other problems but that the PZ III are missing is unacceptable and sets the Germans in a big disadvantage.

[ComradeP]

The in-game consequences are minimal.

The Panzer units in the scenarios are abstracted into combined battalion-sized units. That creates some issues with representing individual companies correctly, but allows the units to combine into a bigger unit.

As you can see, the stats on the Panzer II+Panzer IV combination units are higher than that of the Panzer II+Panzer III combination units in other Panzer divisions.

The number of Panzer III's in either formation isn't high enough relative to other tank types for a Panzer II+Panzer III battalion unless one of the divisions happened to concentrate its Panzer III's in a single battalion.

Tank vs. tank combat early in the war isn't particularly brutal due to the low hard attack values. The French hard attack values are also universally low for their medium tanks.

In most cases, in PzC and in the Panzer Battles demo, by far the most efficient way for the Germans to deal with French armour is through infantry assaults if alt assault is off. That's an issue, but it's the nature of the engine. Early-mid war tank units have the firepower of a weak infantry battalion, with the exception of the 75mm and 76mm tanks.

[Mike Prucha]

Hi BigDuke66,

ComradeP is correct that the Panzer companies are a bit of an abstraction - this is necessary given that the companies had a mixed composition and the unit values represent an average between several tank models. Though it is not listed on the component name, the presence of Panzer IIIs was taken in to account in the unit values for 3 & 4. Panzer. Simply put, there are not enough of them nor are their hard or soft attack values high enough to have much appreciable difference.

I do have an ongoing project to revamp some some F40 scenarios and the OOB to address balance, historic, and gameplay concerns in the "Prucha" scenarios - I probably shouldn't say too much more about that at this point. It will include some changes to the composition of Panzer companies for increased specificity from division to division, but there really isn't much appreciable change to unit values - as I said, there aren't enough Panzer IIIs to make much difference in hard values given that each company is an average of several tanks.

We are aware that the Hannut and Gembloux scenarios tend to favor the French player too much and have found other solutions to address this.

-Mike P

[gabeeg]

...and this is why Tiller games are still some of my favorites, conversations and support like this.

[BigDuke66]

Oh yes!

We are aware that the Hannut and Gembloux scenarios tend to favor the French player too much and have found other solutions to address this.

For the Hannut and Gembloux scenarios I want to note 2 things that need attention:
1. No corps assets of the 4th German Corps including the HQ come on map despite all the divisions of the corps being there. That assets are missing may be true but that nothing above the divisions is there looks like an error.
2. Is it correct that the Germans have no air units for ground attacks the whole time? That Luftflotte 2 may have been involved in supporting Sedan and the other crossings in addition to supporting the drive in the North to take Holland is surely possible, but that they would use all of the assets and not support the drive at Gembloux Gap seems very unlikely. Wiki at least notes that VIII. Fliegerkorps with its many Stuka units supported Hoepner at Gembloux.


As I was checking the other Panzer Divisions in the #0510_04A_Ardennes_Prucha “The Approach to the Meuse” scenario I saw that the 8. Panzer-Division wrongly uses Pz35 instead of Pz38 in its tank units. Maybe it's worth checking if that error got carried over to other scenarios.

[Mike Prucha]

Hi BigDuke66,

You'll be happy to know that the issues that you raise are known and have already been rectified! You are correct that there should be more air support in the Gembloux Gap scenario (it should roughly match what is presented in the Hannut and Gembloux scenarios), but there is supposed to be a dip in air support on the 13th and 14th as VIII. Fliegerkorps was briefly withdrawn to support Meuse crossings. Like I said though, it is premature to say when the revised versions of the Prucha scenarios will be available.

-Mike Prucha

[BigDuke66]

Hi BigDuke66,

You'll be happy to know that the issues that you raise are known and have already been rectified! You are correct that there should be more air support in the Gembloux Gap scenario (it should roughly match what is presented in the Hannut and Gembloux scenarios), but there is supposed to be a dip in air support on the 13th and 14th as VIII. Fliegerkorps was briefly withdrawn to support Meuse crossings. Like I said though, it is premature to say when the revised versions of the Prucha scenarios will be available.

-Mike Prucha

Good to hear, thanks.
I guess it's futile but I have to ask, there isn't any way to get a hand on the revised versions of the Prucha scenarios before the next update?