Status of fire effect calculation changes?

[ComradeP]

Is there any news on changes to how combat works, such as applying percentage bonuses/penalties one after the other instead of adding/subtracting them?

Though I appreciate the modernization of the graphics and interface in recent years, the lack of improvement of the combat engine is not always easy to understand.

The order for applying percentage bonuses or penalties is irrelevant aside from rounding effects due to the nature of percentages, so I wonder what's so difficult to code that's causing a lack of progress.

The combat engine is one of the main reasons why, sometimes, playing PzC is a bit of a chore and not particularly enjoyable. When A or B quality German units mop the floor with your D quality units in yet another scenario because of the cumulative penalties, it takes some mental effort to decide to start another game.

[Green]

Has this issue been raised before?

You are talking about multiplying bonuses and penalties instead of adding them? So for example a -20% and two -40% penalties would currently add to -100% but would multiply out to a -71% penalty.

My assumption has always been that this was a design choice as it could just as easily been done either way. I have never seen it discussed but, like you, it is something that has always struck me as odd. Of course, generally it makes little difference but it does once you get to extreme values. Presumably it is Scheldt '44 has brought this issue to the fore?

[ComradeP]

What you describe is indeed what I'm referring to.

I've raised the issue a number of times over the last couple of years, and others have posted about situations where they noticed the effect though were not always aware it was caused by the way the modifiers are applied. It took me a while to figure out this effect existed as well.

The first time I really noticed the effect was with Panzer Battles: Battles of Normandy. The quality fire modifier is 2.5, so A quality units get a +50% fire effect. That allows the A quality German units to essentially ignore hedgerows. An 11 soft attack value unit will still fire at 11 value when firing through a hedgerow. This is one of the reasons the Commonwealth forces in particular tend to get murdered, as they have mediocre SA values and are mostly C quality.

The next time I noticed it was in Kharkov '43, where entrenched units in City or Industrial hexes are immune to D quality fire.

Due to the below average unit quality in Scheldt '44, it stands out more in that title, but it's not a new issue.

It's also not that difficult to lessen the effect without having to raise unit quality. Reducing terrain and fortification fire effect reductions helps as well. It's the cumulative nature of the fire effect reductions that caused the issue, not one single reduction (or increase, in the case of the quality fire modifier) from either quality, terrain, or fortifications.

[Green]

Yes, I agree that it seems odd. Multiplying the percentages is what you would logically assume. This would give a -25% modifier in your PzB example of Quality A units firing through a hedgerow hexside. This is probably more in line with your expectations. 

When you raised this issue previously did you get any official response? I am not sure this is a bug in the usual sense as John Tiller could only have done this deliberately. But I have no idea why. Perhaps he felt that these effects interacted with each other in such a way so as to create an even greater effect than you would expect by simply accounting for the effects occurring simultaneously but independently?

[Xerxes77]

Newbie learning the ropes here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't modifiers handled the same (i.e. added one after another) across all Tiller series of games?
Is the effect more noticeable or worse in the PB titles?

(While we're on this interesting topic, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a couple of text lines included in the quaintly terse Fire Report dialog, or anywhere for that matter, to get a clearer breakdown of which modifiers are applied when firing, in what order, etc. In fact, any UI improvement that minimizes the time spent scouring the manual for info, or trying to figure out an in-game restriction or result, would be gold in my book!)

[Green]

Newbie learning the ropes here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't modifiers handled the same (i.e. added one after another) across all Tiller series of games?
Is the effect more noticeable or worse in the PB titles?

(While we're on this interesting topic, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a couple of text lines included in the quaintly terse Fire Report dialog, or anywhere for that matter, to get a clearer breakdown of which modifiers are applied when firing, in what order, etc. In fact, any UI improvement that minimizes the time spent scouring the manual for info, or trying to figure out an in-game restriction or result, would be gold in my book!)

As I understand it, the PzC code was the basis for most subsequent JTS games. So, there is every reason to suspect that the modifiers work in a similar way across all these titles. Certainly they operate in the same way in both PzC and PzB.

And I do not think the effect is more 'noticeable or worse' in PzB. Only one of the examples ComradeP mentions was related to PzB. That example was specific to PzB as it relates to the quality fire modifier. This modifier does exist in PzC and operates in an identical way, but it has never been used (except rarely in Mods). It is a noticeable difference between the two series but not the primary cause of the issue ComradeP is concerned about. If anything, I suspect the cumulative affect of adding rather than multiplying modifiers is more of a problem with some PzC titles than it is for PzB.

As for the Fire Report dialog, it is a feature rarely used since the introduction of On Map Results and it has never subsequently been given much attention. At one point I had a spreadsheet that allowed me to replicate these values to a small rounding error in every permutation I could think of. So it is working correctly (occasionally this has been questioned) but the information it provides is not very useful. Players probably only use this feature now to analyze how the game works but it does not give the level of detail most would be looking for. Whether there is sufficient interest to justify trying to improve it is another question.

[NikolaiB]

Has this issue been raised before?

You are talking about multiplying bonuses and penalties instead of adding them? So for example a -20% and two -40% penalties would currently add to -100% but would multiply out to a -71% penalty.

My assumption has always been that this was a design choice as it could just as easily been done either way. I have never seen it discussed but, like you, it is something that has always struck me as odd. Of course, generally it makes little difference but it does once you get to extreme values. Presumably it is Scheldt '44 has brought this issue to the fore?

Wow, I always assumed that it was multiplicative instead of additive! Huh, I guess this make the calculations easier to do in your head.

[Green]

Wow, I always assumed that it was multiplicative instead of additive! Huh, I guess this make the calculations easier to do in your head.

Yes, and for all I know, making it simpler may have been why it was done this way!

[Xerxes77]

As I understand it, the PzC code was the basis for most subsequent JTS games. So, there is every reason to suspect that the modifiers work in a similar way across all these titles. Certainly they operate in the same way in both PzC and PzB.

And I do not think the effect is more 'noticeable or worse' in PzB. Only one of the examples ComradeP mentions was related to PzB. That example was specific to PzB as it relates to the quality fire modifier. This modifier does exist in PzC and operates in an identical way, but it has never been used (except rarely in Mods). It is a noticeable difference between the two series but not the primary cause of the issue ComradeP is concerned about. If anything, I suspect the cumulative affect of adding rather than multiplying modifiers is more of a problem with some PzC titles than it is for PzB.

As for the Fire Report dialog, it is a feature rarely used since the introduction of On Map Results and it has never subsequently been given much attention. At one point I had a spreadsheet that allowed me to replicate these values to a small rounding error in every permutation I could think of. So it is working correctly (occasionally this has been questioned) but the information it provides is not very useful. Players probably only use this feature now to analyze how the game works but it does not give the level of detail most would be looking for. Whether there is sufficient interest to justify trying to improve it is another question.

Hi Green,
many thanks for your reply. I just realized you and ComradeP are talking about the Quality Fire Modifier Parameter Data value, which according to the manual always defaults to 1. I got that confused with the Quality Fire Modifiers that are always added for units above C quality.

Re: the ancient, cryptic, text-based, unjustly forgotten Fire Report dialog   Agreed, it's clunky and generally unhelpful, but AFAIK it's still the only place where a player could consult the Fire Value for a given shot and the modifiers that applied, a posteriori. Even so, it took me an embarrassingly long time and many tests to realize the Fire Value printed therein corresponds to a unit firing at full strength, and before terrain/quality/effectiveness modifiers are applied.

On-Map results are definitely the way to go for regular play, and I reckon after a couple dozen games the system may be intuitive enough, but having a simple way to check Fire Values and modifs, especially prior to firing, would IMO do marvels to add clarity to the mechanics (including for folks who assumed -like I did at first- that percentages were compounded instead of added linearly).

I understand interest in improving that area may be low, but a stats nut can dream. And oh I can think of some fun stuff to add to that victory screen... :-D

[Green]

Even so, it took me an embarrassingly long time and many tests to realize the Fire Value printed therein corresponds to a unit firing at full strength, and before terrain/quality/effectiveness modifiers are applied.

 
Yes, but when you say 'full strength' the value does reflect the Infantry Fire Effectiveness adjustment as well as halving or quartering adjustments due to things such as Disruption/Low Ammo/Digging In and Travel mode. Any range adjustment is also included I believe.

It is complex, which is why it is not useful.