Help with F '14 Liege

Lohengrin · 02-13-2015, 02:23 AM,

To those of you with some experience with the subject scenario, how do you win this as the German? Without siege guns, I bash my head against the fortresses and don't make a dent. I read that Ludendorff passed between the forts undetected at night, but this isn't possible due to Belgian defenders and the Night Rule. Even the 210mm artillery won't seriously damage units in the fortresses, so is the idea to ignore them? The best odds I've been able to get against one of the weaker forts on the East side is 1:1, which fails to capture the fort. Is there any hope of ever taking one of these without siege artillery?

I'm having a lot of difficulty with this and would appreciate some help. Thanks.

Lohengrin · 02-13-2015, 04:24 AM,

Oh, also I noticed that in the Liege scn Ft. Barchon has a defense value of -60%+30, while in the Getting Started scn it has a value of -30%+15, just like Fort Evegnee next to it, both of which forts fell prior to the arrival of the siege artillery. In which scenario is Barchon's defense value correct?

**Mr Grumpy** · 02-13-2015, 08:58 AM,

I wrote a long post explaining how best to play this scenario from the German POV, but hit an odd key by mistake and lost all of my text when the page refreshed. :(

It is late now, I will try to repost my comments tomorrow.

Lohengrin · 02-13-2015, 09:46 AM,

Thanks for the effort, Mr Grumpy. A shame your work was lost, but I look forward to your thoughts when you can regain your inspiration.

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 02-13-2015, 04:34 PM by Volcano Man.)

The defense value of Ft Barchon is correct in both scenarios. In the getting started scenario, that fort is destroyed and vacated, hence the half defense.

As for tactics, yes you can sneak between the forts, and yes you can move through at night, you just end up getting disrupted. Obviously you cannot do this unless there is an empty gap between the forts though, since you would run into the Belgians and would be forced to push them out. However, if you can managed to find a gap through when (or if) the Belgians pull into the forts to defend, then you can get into Liege.

The best tactic in the scenario however is to push around Liege from both sides with the cavalry and cut off the Belgian escape route. Then attack between the forts and take the city itself. Doing this should be enough to win the scenario, as long as the Belgians do not historically escape their 3rd Division to the exit hex in the west. But this is where the cavalry comes into play -- they need to cut off the supply routes to the west AND block the Belgians from withdrawing. If you can do that and take Liege, then you should win. You shouldn't even be trying to take the forts over in the Liege scenario, the only reason the points exist for them is if you get lucky, or if the Belgians do something stupid like leave them completely empty except for the fortress guns and MG unit, then you *might* be able to take a fort with repeated assaults after isolating them for a time and having them go low on ammo (their fort provided supplies are at a minimal level).

Of course "taking Liege" is not an easy task, especially if the Belgians fight back, but doing so is a risk for them because it seals the fate of the Belgian infantry and allows them to be destroyed for more puts. It is a gamble for them. Historically Liege was taken because the Belgian 3rd Division did decide to withdraw, but that all depends on the AI or your human opponent. Expect a tough battle regardless. ;)

Lohengrin · 02-14-2015, 03:08 AM,

Thanks for the advice, Ed. I kept getting the feeling I was doing something wrong by not assaulting the forts properly, or something. In a prior play, I did manage to disrupt a fort MG unit, but it rallied the next turn. MG and gun units are very hard to disrupt normally (due to low density I surmise), so I cringe at the prospects of gaining that result against them in a fortress.

As a matter of curiosity, how would the other nations without the super-heavy siege artillery hope to take fortresses like, say, the French and Metz? Would they have to actually lay siege and starve them out? It calls into question the whole fortress doctrine and its apparent abandonment from the levels seen in WWI (Maginot notwithstanding), given that they still posed a serious military obstacle.

Lohengrin · 02-15-2015, 12:31 AM,

(02-13-2015, 04:31 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: The defense value of Ft Barchon is correct in both scenarios. In the getting started scenario, that fort is destroyed and vacated, hence the half defense.

Got it. Okay, but my next question would be: What about the forts that do start at -30%+15, like Fort Evegnee? Are these forts damaged in some way to start? In other words, what is the reason some forts have the lower value as opposed to the -60%+30 at the outset? Purely a historical question about the nature of this ring of forts which I'd [rightly or wrongly] assume to be of uniform and contemporary construction.

**Mr Grumpy** · 02-15-2015, 07:21 AM,

I assume you are laying hot seat or against the AI ?

I only ask as the difference between a human opponent and the AI in this type of scenario is huge, the tactics that the Germans need to use depends on which strategy the defender uses, as Ed says the Belgian player can win by either evacuating the city an moving the 3rd Div to the exit hexes or to stay and defend the VP hexes within the city, as Ed says there are only vp points awarded for the forts to prevent the Belgian player from not garrisoning them correctly, if you look at the VP levels you would see that the German player does not need to capture any fort to win the game and so they can be ignored by the German player.

So as Ed as us you need to surround the city to prevent the 3rd Div from reaching the exit hexes should the defender try that tactic, if he defends the city you still need to surround the city as that will drop the defenders supply from 70 to 20 and cause more units to go low ammo, aim your attacks at the gaps between the forts especially to the north of the city as there is at least three hex gaps between the forts, attacking from the south across the river will not succeed against a competent defender but you need to threaten all of the perimeter to stretch the defenders as thin as possible.

If the Belgian player does decide to defend the city then it is a race against time to get to the VP hexes so some chances need to be taken with stacking, the Belgian player does not have any arty so some risk with stacking is acceptable in this scenario.

I have played this scenario as both sides and won as both sides, so both results are possible. Smile

Lohengrin · 02-15-2015, 08:09 AM,

@Mr Grumpy: Right now I'm playing vs. the AI, but anticipate playing against a human soon. Thanks for your pointers. In my current game I'm in the process of encircling the city. However, the AI has moved the bulk of the 3rd Div. north to the ford across the Meuse, making an early crossing there problematic. As a result, I'm moving forces to the two rail bridge crossings just to get forces across and take on the remainder of the 3rd Div., and also to secure the Western exits.

My main confusion was with the forts themselves, I guess. I know the Germans actually took Fts. Barchon and Evegnee before the siege artillery arrived, so it should be possible to do that. But it seems very unlikely. So the only thing left is to bypass like you and Ed said and go for the city. I'm midway through Aug. 6 and my brigades are just now getting in position to attack [through] the fortress ring.

Thanks for your valuable insights. Very helpful to me.