Hidden units and visibility improving

[ComradeP]

If the second player moves a unit into a hex where it would normally be hidden due to not being in LOS of an enemy unit and 1 hex outside the LOS of an enemy unit, and visibility improves next turn (thus making the hex visible to the nearest enemy unit), the first player can see the unit of the second player even though it could not see it moving into the hex it's in on the turn of the second player.

Is this working as intended? It can make setting up Soviet defenses somewhat tricky in scenarios with lots of visibility changes.

The visibility seems to either change after the second player hits end turn but still technically on his turn, or be retroactively applied to the second player on the previous turn for some reason.

The situations in the screenshot are in sequence, from night to dawn (the final screenshot). The Axis screenshots, the second and fourth, have FOW enabled.

Note that this happens in all situations, not just at dawn.

[wiggum]

Looks like a bug !

[Dog Soldier]

In my test I found the Soviet unit is fixed initially in ComradeP's example. This is how things look from both sides in their turns with FOW on. The image on the left is taken during the Axis first turn at night. The image on the right is taken from the Soviet first night turn.


The Soviet ATR unit needs an Axis unit next to it (one hex visibility at night) to release it. The two images below show things from both sides in the turn this happens. The Axis unit is unaware of the Soviet ATR unit in the bunker. The Soviet unit can see the Axis unit in the subsequent Soviet turn.


Now the Soviet unit exits the bunker some time after being released. I waited an extra turn in this case. Neither unit can see the other because the night LOS is only one hex.


After one more Axis night turn the Soviet ATR moves into the scattered building hex. Being night this move is not detected by the Axis unit.


Now I advance the turn and watch the Soviet replay of their turn as the Axis player. At the end of the replay the Soviet unit is still hidden! It is the Axis dawn turn.


After the replay the Soviet ATR unit is revealed. If visibility at dawn was only three hexes instead of four (or the Axis unit was one hex further away) the Soviet unit would have remained hidden.


I agree that it is technically correct that the Soviet unit should have remained hidden. IMHO I would not dance on the very edge of know visibility until Strela can take a look at this and determine if there is a problem or a better explanation.

The visibility seems to either change after the second player hits end turn but still technically on his turn, or be retroactively applied to the second player on the previous turn for some reason.

No there is no retroactive application of visibility I am aware of. Visibility does change at the start of the first player's turn so it can apply equally to both players for a full turn before any change occurs.

The situations in the screenshot are in sequence, from night to dawn (the final screenshot). The Axis screenshots, the second and fourth, have FOW enabled.

Note that this happens in all situations, not just at dawn.

I can confirm what you are seeing. I have run a test and got the same result with a dawn turn. I can understand it can happen on other turns when one is playing along the edge of LOS.

However, if the Russian unit were to move into cover well outside of the known or expected LOS, even with a visibility change which is never more than one hex per turn, it will remain hidden. To be safe a player who wants to remain hidden on the next turn when they know visibility is increasing should allow for a margin of at least an extra hex rather than trying to dance on the edge of the known LOS. That is what I do and I have not had my units revealed.

Dog Soldier

[ComradeP]

Yeah, I released the unit first by moving an Axis unit next to it, as otherwise I couldn't move it pre-dawn.

There are situations where it is not entirely clear what hexes would be visible if visibility would increase (due to visibility being a cone of sorts instead of a straight line) and when you're running away from the Axis in the opening turns where not knowing when a unit is hidden or not can cost you some units.

It's not much of a problem in most scenarios, but it's certainly annoying if your spotters which you thought were hidden are spotted and killed on the Axis turn.

[Dog Soldier]

What you describe ComradeP is exactly the feel we were looking for in this game. You can still do the right things and sometimes wind up dead anyways.

That is our take on combat in the war.

Ever play hide and seek as a kid? You thought you had the perfect place to be the last one found and the person who is 'it' finds you right off! It happens. It can be that way sometimes in this game too. Otherwise, if there was a way to calculate the perfect moves, the game would be as dull as any mathematical exercise.

FWIW, any good attacker will have his recon assets out looking to find your hidden spotters. Those guys can't stay hidden for long against a smart player using the recon spotting feature.

Dog Soldier

[ComradeP]

I agree that it adds to the tension, and sometimes it feels lame to have spotters that probably would not have suitable communication equipment hanging around in the enemy rear for some cheap artillery shots at units moving up in T-mode, so fewer spotters can make a game feel better anyway.

As to recon spotting: in many scenarios, the front is usually either so wide that it's not particularly effective or you have few if any recon units. That can make it difficult to find hidden units.