CMRT: tank combat seems way off

[Steiner14]

Because of suspicious results during games I did a few hull down tests.

First the situation that raised my suspicion to a level I couldn't ignore any longer:

Panther full hulldown:


JS1 hull up:


The JS1 was stationary, the Panther moved into this hulldown position.

Spotting: the JS1 spotted the PzV first and usually spots first. Ok, that's plausible.

But that the Panther wasn't able to spot the JS1 after it had shot several times, felt strange.
And that the JS1 can hit the full HD PzV more often than vice versa, also didn't seem right.

So I made a few tests:

Panther vs JS1
Range 1075 m

First test:
Panther grey line hd - JS1 grey line hd
Result: 60% wins JS1, 40% PzV
JS1 spotting better than PzV
JS1 hitting better than PzV

Testscenario:
Panther vs JS1 hulldown 1075 m (grey LOS)

Second test:
Second testfile
Panther blue line hd (not partial hd, full hd) - JS1 grey line hd
Result: 80% wins JS1, less than 20% PzV

Third test:
Third testfile
Vice versa to the second test:
Panther grey line hd - JS1 blue line hd (full, not partial HD)
Result: 50:50


Better optics + better gun accuracy + much higher ROF = does not matter?
It's bad enough that the huge smoke blast of Soviet guns isn't modelled, but if the other things that are claimed to be modelled, give such results, then I'm wondering how their German models would perform if they had Russian optics, Russian guns and Russian ROF...

[H1nd]

The battlefront forums have quite a few threads about hull down being slightly broken = spotting is much harder while in hull down. Has been this way at least from CM:BN 2.0 as far as I know.

I did few testings of my own with 17 firing lanes IS-1 vs Panthers. (none in hull down, all hull up)
Three runs' and only thing clearly superior is the Panthers frontal armor, slightly better gun accuracy and better penetration of panthers gun. Edit: firing range was 1000m.

[Steiner14]

That has been known for so long?! Hulldown is the most important thing in tank combat. Deeply distressing.

[H1nd]

A while yes. It is on their list of todo for certain but it could be relatively hard thing to balance and code. It's similar problem to AT-gun's being too easy to spot etc etc. One has to also consider that cover and visibility are heavily abstracted in CM, there fore a tank while clearly visible to the player might be calculated by the engine by some odd to be hidden and thus harder to spot (the real world is much messy and fractured than the simplified terrain CM can present)

There has been quite a lot of threads on the forum of German equipement being somehow unrealistically inferior but no large scale testing has been able to reliably prove these accusations. We have to remember that bad luck can happen in quite impressive series: In my most recent game I lost 6 su-85's and su-122's in one turn simply because for some reason my scouting infantry (and there was plenty of it) had failed to spot a pair of at-gun's in the middle of a open potato field few hundred meters away accompanied by a tiger. It could be very tempting to say that infantry spotting or even go as far as say soviet infantry spotting is somehow broken but i'm pretty sure this was just bad luck.

[A Canadian Cat]

A while yes. It is on their list of todo for certain but it could be relatively hard thing to balance and code.

Indeed. If I recall correctly it had to do with a combination of two subtle problems: spotting - the hull down tank had a disadvantage in spotting which meant it, on average, did not get the first shot. And determining hull down status was a bit off and tall tanks (Panther and higher) were not correctly getting their "harder to spot" bonus for being hull down. I am sure it will be fixed. But remember luck plays out too and even once they are fixed it does not mean hull down will be uber safe.

There has been quite a lot of threads on the forum of German equipement being somehow unrealistically inferior but no large scale testing has been able to reliably prove these accusations.

Yeah, not only has the testing not proven them it as refuted them. I see not indication that there is any problem here other than some player's perspectives.

We have to remember that bad luck can happen in quite impressive series: In my most recent game I lost 6 su-85's and su-122's in one turn simply because for some reason my scouting infantry (and there was plenty of it) had failed to spot a pair of at-gun's in the middle of a open potato field few hundred meters away accompanied by a tiger. It could be very tempting to say that infantry spotting or even go as far as say soviet infantry spotting is somehow broken but i'm pretty sure this was just bad luck.

Yep, spot on. Bad things can happen even when you do all the right things. And lord help you if you fail to do the right thing tactically - because you will be punished.

[Shorker]

EDIT: Tried to delete my last post but was not allowed to do so by the system.

[iluvmy88]

i have noticed a few times where my take could not spot another 50m away that was simply behind a tree. spotting definatly has to be tweaked as a tank in the open is all too easy to spot.

[Toblakai]

Similarly experience here:
- Infantry needed two turns to spot a T34 about 50m far away (wood).
- Infantry spotted an eighty-eight more than 1800m away in the same time.

[Steiner14]

I think overall spotting works quite well and statistically delivers good results while not being too predictable, but where I have a problem is the most important aspect of tank duels and who has the tactical advantage. After more tests it seems that the size of a tank-target (full hulldown, size of silhouette hitable) has much less influence of being hit, than the factor who moves and who stands still (and therefore usually spots first).

The inaccuracy of the Soviet 122 mm gun seems to be not modelled and therefore doesn't reflect the poor performance of JS-2 and ISU 122 tanks. Their somewhat weaker in-game performance seems to be mostly a result of the slower ROF.

ps: in the meanwhile I have found a great workaround to eliminate the spotting disadvantage of the tank that breaks LOS when he attacks from his hulldown position, but it is an extremely gamey trick and was not practized in reality.

[Shorker]

You all must also take into consideration

1. Equipment: German units more often carry binoculars than Russians.
2. Skill level of the units and their HQs.