Fort d' Manonville F14

jonnymacbrown · 07-22-2011, 01:48 AM,

This little fortress down near Luneville seems impossible to take. I've had it attacked by a full enemy division and they didn't make even a dent. As the German I don't bother. It is well defended by a powerful garrison and is a modern fort with full defense. I'm wondering if anyone has ever taken this place? I suspect that to do so, 6th Army would have to wheel over 50% of its siege guns and devote a full Korps to the attack; and even then it would be a long and arduous task. Better to forget about it methinks. :conf:

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 07-22-2011, 09:24 AM by Volcano Man.)

Hmm, I thought there were some RR mobile Big Berthas down there to use against it. Have you tried those on it? The only thing you can really do is bypass it and isolate (to force it to use its tiny supply source) and just keep pounding it with siege guns that belong to 6.Armee. Other than that, I would certainly bypass it.

Volcano Man · 07-22-2011, 01:53 PM,

Ahh yes, looking at it now -- the guns I was referring to belong to an off map 1./kz.Marine-Kanonen batterie which shows up on the map edge on the 25th of August. So yes indeed, I would bypass that fort and screen it until you start bombarding it on the 25th.

jonnymacbrown · 07-22-2011, 02:06 PM,

(07-22-2011, 01:53 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: Ahh yes, looking at it now -- the guns I was referring to belong to an off map 1./kz.Marine-Kanonen batterie which shows up on the map edge on the 25th of August. So yes indeed, I would bypass that fort and screen it until you start bombarding it on the 25th.

Yes but that one battery isn't enough. That's one of the most powerfully defended forts the French have. If the German player wants to take it, they need more than one battery of heavy guns. My opponent tried it and got nowhere taking heavy losses-there are many French guns of various caliber in there and plenty of troops as well as a full 60% +30 reduction. :(

Here are some neet pictures of the fort. :smoke:
http://www.fortiffsere.fr/troueedecharme...ge4059.htm

Volcano Man · (This post was last modified: 07-22-2011, 06:40 PM by Volcano Man.)

Yes, perhaps so, but I was suggesting a bombardment of several days (nearly three days to be exact, which is when the guns were withdrawn). Historically, it took two days of bombardment before they left the area.

There is good news however, I got out my sources tonight and it appears I may have left a battery of 2 x 30.5cm guns out. Apparently 2./s.Küstenmörser was there with those 2 x 42cm guns, and they participated in the bombardment together before being whisked away. I will look at adding that battery in the next version. Surely in three days of bombardment with both of those batteries of siege guns, the troops inside would be worthless, and the guns units would have enough disruptions as to warrant an assault (a few un-disrupted are fine, as they would lose those 2 guns in the defense, and repeat). :)

Frode Larsen · 07-23-2011, 05:57 AM,

(07-22-2011, 05:08 PM)Volcano Man Wrote: Yes, perhaps so, but I was suggesting a bombardment of several days (nearly three days to be exact, which is when the guns were withdrawn). Historically, it took two days of bombardment before they left the area.

There is good news however, I got out my sources tonight and it appears I may have left a battery of 2 x 30.5cm guns out. Apparently 2./s.Küstenmörser was there with those 2 x 42cm guns, and they participated in the bombardment together before being whisked away. I will look at adding that battery in the next version. Surely in three days of bombardment with both of those batteries of siege guns, the troops inside would be worthless, and the guns units would have enough disruptions as to warrant an assault (a few un-disrupted are fine, as they would lose those 2 guns in the defense, and repeat). :)

Hi, just qurious: Did the Germans ever capture Fort d'Manonville during their 1914 offensive? If I'm not mistaken, Luneville was occupied for a short time, but I've been wondering about this fort (having always had problems reducing it in the Grand Campaign).

jonnymacbrown · (This post was last modified: 07-23-2011, 06:17 AM by jonnymacbrown.)

"Hi, just qurious: Did the Germans ever capture Fort d'Manonville during their 1914 offensive? If I'm not mistaken, Luneville was occupied for a short time, but I've been wondering about this fort (having always had problems reducing it in the Grand Campaign)."

There are plenty of pictures on the web that show extensive damage; plenty of articles too, all in French. jonny ;)

Volcano Man · 07-23-2011, 09:26 AM,

It seems the Germans bombarded it for two days and the garrison surrendered. I figure that, in game play, this result would be equate to most of the units being disrupted by then, and some German assaults causing them to surrender after any non-disrupted units are knocked out. Of course that missing 30.5cm siege battery will help bring this about in the next version. ;)

jonnymacbrown · 07-23-2011, 10:02 AM,

(07-23-2011, 09:26 AM)Volcano Man Wrote: It seems the Germans bombarded it for two days and the garrison surrendered. I figure that, in game play, this result would be equate to most of the units being disrupted by then, and some German assaults causing them to surrender after any non-disrupted units are knocked out. Of course that missing 30.5cm siege battery will help bring this about in the next version. ;)

Now that we are on this topic there is something I've wanted to bring up: You can bombard a fort for days and it never loses any of its intrinsic strength. The units inside get hit but you don't ever "reduce" a fort; it remains permanently intact. Is this a game feature and if so, is this accurate? jonny :smoke:

Volcano Man · 07-23-2011, 11:27 AM,

Well, just like how it works in every other game in the system from PzC to MC, bombarding units in fortifications does not reduce the fortification. Whether it is accurate... well, who is to say that any of this is accurate? ;) The only yard stick is whether or not it can hold out to historical levels.

If, in F14, the fortification did get reduced from FORT to Fort, then it would certainly not be able to hold out for two days against two siege gun batteries. The roll of the die might make it get reduced on the first bombardment, then the second and third bombardments blast the occupants to smithereens. As it sits, I am very happy with how long the forts hold out in F14 / FWWC, all too often in these games the defender doesn't seem to have staying power, I prefer the current method of luck and gradual wearing down to decide the issue at this level. These forts seem to provide a reasonably historical amount of resistance. F14 fort levels are directly determined by their capability, and Fort de Manonviller was a modern fort and was extremely capable.