Forum-improving lively topic #KKR1/10

[K K Rossokolski]

TRUCKS. Just the ordinary old truck, not the vast plethora of exotic types, covered or otherwise, clogging up the OOBs.
Can anyone explain the following:
1. Standard desert terrain, no roads.
British truck travels 7 hexes
German truck 6 hexes
Italian truck 4 hexes
This makes no sense to me, having owned in the last half century at least one vehicle from each of the above nations.

2. This is not new, but regularly goes unanswered......Why are trucks now 3VPs? Having done some infantry courses during my long time in the Navy, no one values the amenity of a deuce-and-a-half ride more than I. I just have trouble with the value...... 2, fine, but 3???
If nothing else, surely such a huge change renders the balance stats of the great stock of truck-containing old scens very suspect, even noting that truck carrying capacity has been doubled.

BTW, if any of my current foes reads this, I will try hard to get back to you ASAP, perambulations having finished for a while, I hope.

[Crossroads]

TRUCKS. Just the ordinary old truck, not the vast plethora of exotic types, covered or otherwise, clogging up the OOBs.
Can anyone explain the following:
1. Standard desert terrain, no roads.
British truck travels 7 hexes
German truck 6 hexes
Italian truck 4 hexes
This makes no sense to me, having owned in the last half century at least one vehicle from each of the above nations.

Them damn Fiats are just no good. Not on the streets, not on the desert.

Not everyone of us has owned a Ferrari like you, mind you :mad: I once dreamed owning a Alfa Romeo... No Alfa Romeo trucks made either?

;)

2. This is not new, but regularly goes unanswered......Why are trucks now 3VPs? Having done some infantry courses during my long time in the Navy, no one values the amenity of a deuce-and-a-half ride more than I. I just have trouble with the value...... 2, fine, but 3???
If nothing else, surely such a huge change renders the balance stats of the great stock of truck-containing old scens very suspect, even noting that truck carrying capacity has been doubled.

BTW, if any of my current foes reads this, I will try hard to get back to you ASAP, perambulations having finished for a while, I hope.

I believe the change was made at the time it took only 1/2 SP of Trucks to transfer 1 SP of infantry. Therefore, but only with the newer scenarios, the VP value available from truks has actually gone down 50%

I might be wrong though. I often am. What was the old VP value of a truck again? I am at work, can't access the info...

Great topic btw!

[K K Rossokolski]

Old VP was 1.

[Larry Reese]

TRUCKS. Just the ordinary old truck, not the vast plethora of exotic types, covered or otherwise, clogging up the OOBs.
Can anyone explain the following:
1. Standard desert terrain, no roads.
British truck travels 7 hexes
German truck 6 hexes
Italian truck 4 hexes
This makes no sense to me, having owned in the last half century at least one vehicle from each of the above nations.

2. This is not new, but regularly goes unanswered......Why are trucks now 3VPs? Having done some infantry courses during my long time in the Navy, no one values the amenity of a deuce-and-a-half ride more than I. I just have trouble with the value...... 2, fine, but 3???
If nothing else, surely such a huge change renders the balance stats of the great stock of truck-containing old scens very suspect, even noting that truck carrying capacity has been doubled.

BTW, if any of my current foes reads this, I will try hard to get back to you ASAP, perambulations having finished for a while, I hope.

I"ve been disappointed with some similar disparities between off-road movements of various nations half-tracks too. However, from a truck perspective, I think you would have to hope that the disparity resulted from an averaging of national truck types (if the Italian fleet had predominantly civil-models, their cross country values would be less than another force that had historically mostly purpose built high mobility four by fours - look at the ridiculously poor reliability and mobility of the German truck fleet in Russia as an example - the impressed civvy French and German vehicles didn't have the mobility or the robustness to serve in the theater and the catastrophic loss rates were severely felt). We could also add in modifications for national doctrines, fuel availability, maximum usable top speeds, etc.... Of course, not having access to the minds of the people who actually put the figures together way back when, this would all be guess work.

As for VPs, I'm all for it being three, particularly for nations, like the Axis, that did not have vast fleets of trucks waiting in the wings. When you lost those, you didn't get them back. You walked, and abandoned your heavy equipment from there on out. Trucks should equal gold for those nations. Now, the US, for example, I can see trucks being of less intrinsic value individually since literally millions were available and losses were made good, historically, in most cases in a matter of days. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that the original valuation took such a narrow, tactical "today's battle only" view to things. How the battle contributes, or detracts, from your side's ability to win the campaign and the war is the critical piece. But I've always been one for the larger picture and I'll get off my soap box and spare you!

LR

[Jason Petho]

Larry nailed it.

Jason Petho

[Von Earlmann]

The blame lies entirely on Malta......Axis supply is limited hence they have to go fewer hexes to conserve fuel.......explains the German truck movement being less.......and of course everybody knows Rommel fueled up his mobile forces first and Italians got what was left.......I'm surprised they can move at all :-)

Now this forum is rocking except for the halftracks!

VE

[K K Rossokolski]

Larry Reese said

"It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that the original valuation took such a narrow, tactical "today's battle only" view to things. How the battle contributes, or detracts, from your side's ability to win the campaign and the war is the critical piece. But I've always been one for the larger picture and I'll get off my soap box and spare you!"

In other words, you are telling me that as I develop a scenario for Gazala
(Western Desert), say, I should weigh up the choice of an objective in part as to how it might effect the fortunes of the Marines on Guadalcanal. Or as I play a move against DAK tanks at Sidi Rezegh, I ...the Captain rank troop commander...... need to consider the possible effect my manoeuvres might have on the security of the Russian convoys.

I'll try to keep all that in mind.

[Jason Petho]

Possibly consider more locally.

Relatively shortly after Sidi Regezh, the British were rapidly advancing across the Cyrenaica which is difficult to do if you've squandered your transport.

Jason Petho

[K K Rossokolski]

Point taken, and might well apply in a full campaign setting. But a CS scenario is IMO not a grand strategic vehicle, but an operational/tactical level simulation ideal for gaming battles....not wars.
I am sure there are grand strategy games around that can do what Larry seeks.

And just on trucks, CS cannot replicate one of war's most common historical aspects..the capture and use of enemy equipment.

[Jason Petho]

Point taken, and might well apply in a full campaign setting. But a CS scenario is IMO not a grand strategic vehicle, but an operational/tactical level simulation ideal for gaming battles....not wars.
I am sure there are grand strategy games around that can do what Larry seeks.

Understood.

When I design a set of scenarios that depict a larger battle, as not everyone plays the campaigns, I do try to keep the overall picture in mind. Losses taken, if there were replacements and the quality of those replacements, the morale and how it changes, vehicle replacements/additions/losses, etc are all considered for each scenario. Come to think of it, I try and do the same thing for individual scenarios.

And just on trucks, CS cannot replicate one of war's most common historical aspects..the capture and use of enemy equipment.

Agreed, not during the course of a scenario.

You can incorporate those captured units within a scenario set or a campaign setting, as many of the captured units are included in the various order of battles. Additional units will hopefully come into the game as we progress with UPDATEs.

Jason Petho