SPMBT challenge: Presovo Valley

[2ndLt_Fjun]

Hi,

I'd like to play this scenario (see below for some special scoring rules..). Never played it before and it looks quite interesting.

Presovo Valley 2001
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Date: March 3, 2001*
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Battle Location: Southern Serbia a few kilometers from Kosovo*
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Battle Type: Yugoslav Assault on KLA guerillas*
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Design by: The Camo Workshop*
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Scenario description: KLA guerillas, renamed the Liberation Army of Presovo-Medvedja-Bujanovac infiltrate the demilitarized zone between Kosovo and Serbia. Yugoslav army units are not permitted to enter this zone, but police units are. MUP forces are sent to clear some villages in the region before the KLA has time to establish serious defenses.*
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Note: If played against the AI, the human player should play the Yugoslav side.*
*

Been thinking of how to play scenarios in a more balanced way. I'd like to test the following:

* A mirrored game going on simultaneously (only bad thing is that this takes out much of the fog of war).
* Both games are scored simultaneously. Number of victory objectives and battle points from both games are added together, crunched in the excel sheet, and the victory level is determined.
* The end result is reported twice (since it is actually two games).

If the scenario is completely off in terms of balance it ends up with two draws. However, it should be possible to get some more of the scenarios into play.

Anyone up for trying this on the Presovo Valley scenario?

[Imp]

* A mirrored game going on simultaneously (only bad thing is that this takes out much of the fog of war).

Think this could take a lot of the fun out of delay defend scenerios.
Wont sort the problem completly but perhaps try picking 2 seperate similar scenerios.
If possible
Same meeting type
AI plays the same side (i.e. defender or attacker)
Same Designer

Thats about the best you can do to hope they are balanced about the same. You both play the player side in one game & the AI in the other.

If you do it against someone you play regulary can wing scoring a bit as know each others levels & how well you actually played so just agree to adjust score level if needed beforehand.

[2ndLt_Fjun]

* A mirrored game going on simultaneously (only bad thing is that this takes out much of the fog of war).

Think this could take a lot of the fun out of delay defend scenerios.
Wont sort the problem completly but perhaps try picking 2 seperate similar scenerios.
If possible
Same meeting type
AI plays the same side (i.e. defender or attacker)
Same Designer

Thats about the best you can do to hope they are balanced about the same. You both play the player side in one game & the AI in the other.

If you do it against someone you play regulary can wing scoring a bit as know each others levels & how well you actually played so just agree to adjust score level if needed beforehand.

As an "advanced" option to keep the fog of war the editor can be used as well to change the deployment of your forces, or even to buy new forces within the points limit and spirit of the scenario. I wouldn't mind trying that either.. found most people here to be very honest.

[retired from gaming]

* A mirrored game going on simultaneously (only bad thing is that this takes out much of the fog of war).

Think this could take a lot of the fun out of delay defend scenerios.
Wont sort the problem completly but perhaps try picking 2 seperate similar scenerios.
If possible
Same meeting type
AI plays the same side (i.e. defender or attacker)
Same Designer

Thats about the best you can do to hope they are balanced about the same. You both play the player side in one game & the AI in the other.

If you do it against someone you play regulary can wing scoring a bit as know each others levels & how well you actually played so just agree to adjust score level if needed beforehand.

Imp,
my guess is you probably aren't talking from experience. In theory it might sound reasonable, but by all means I would'nt recomend taking two diferent scens to balance the result. It won't work, trust me. Been there, done that. I have no idea how many scenarios you guys played, but can bet bucks against pinuts nobody here PBEM'ed as many as I did. There is not such a thing like balanced scenario. Some of them are just less unbalanced than others and I call them suitable for PBEM, yet balanced is the word which shouldn't be used here. Even purchased games arent usually balanced, as players use difernt nations.
The only balanced games per se I ever played were few years ago in World Cup tourney, when participiants could use any units from the game. Everybody had the same chance.
2ndLtFun idea has some potential, but only for players who do not care about playing scenarios blind. Not for me.

cheers
maciej

[Imp]

my guess is you probably aren't talking from experience

Not a great deal but from what I have played scenerios designed by the same guy tend to be roughly similar in difficulty though the odd one can be wildly diffrent.
Yes it wont be balanced but best you can do as designers often follow a sort of formula, could be wrong but example.
Normally give human best equipment or vica versa.
Normally set up dispersed or tight for defend delay etc.
Most scenerios by the same guy tend therefore to be unbalanced towards the same side & to a lesser extent by a similar amount.
As you say though based mainly on playing vs AI only done 2 by PBEM.

[Walrus]

Hi Imp
Just so you know, Czerpak has been on a mission for the last few years to PBEM all the pre-made scenarios that come with MBT and WW2.
I would back him up that he has by far the most experience with the balance (or not) of these scenarios.

The World Cup he mentions was a tourney I created years ago that was an attempt to make the most balanced battles. I even created the maps to be mirror images from left to right, as much as I could, but even that was not perfectly balanced, as P1 moves fist...and thus has an advantage re. terrain.

Good luck with working this out.
I think there is a great demand for pre-made scenarios that are made for PBEM.
Weasel made a great one for MBT based on a para-drop at a crossroads.
Scen 182 - Crossroads at Lubbeke 1989

You should give that a try.

Czerpak and I just PBEM scen 157 - Made of Stearn Stuff which is the battle at Long Tan in Vietnam 1966. I never thought that would work PBEM< as I had a hand in playtesting it back when it was created...but it actuall made for a robust battle.
However...it would be useless to try to play it as a mirror battle as some cool surprises would be nullified.

Good luck

[Imp]

Hi Walrus

It was just a suggestion based on what I have played, found if one was easy others by the same guy seemed to be so skipped them & vica versa, camo ones a bit of a mixed bag.
Cant think of a better way it will always be a bit hit & miss but made because of

However...it would be useless to try to play it as a mirror battle as some cool surprises would be nullified.

Fine for meetings but thats about it.

Just had a thought wont quite do it but sort of baby tourney.
Post for people to play scenerios want at least 4 - 6 players.
For every 2 people you play a scenerio so 4=2 6=3 etc.
Everybody plays one side from each game.
Set up a forum for & report games there or send me the results.
Sure I could think up a way to massage the final results, if the game returns overwhelming both times adjust down a notch or 2 based on the results of the other game.

Better still if you had 8 players (perhaps 6) playing 2 or more scenerios could score much like a tourney as would have 4 results for each game.
If you were really up for it if 8 players played 8 scens would also let everyone play everyone else & someone twice.

Not such a baby tourney anymore but thats basicly what tourneys are if at least 8 people signed up could do it decide the number of scenerios before hand by a poll or something. Submit the one you want as join if wish & I determine the ones used randomly or ask Czerpak to nominate some good ones. The only diffrence possibly is do not split into 2 sides there will only be one winner, have to think it through brains not doing the maths at the mo.

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Extra thought to get off the ground find 4 players each nominates a scenerio & plays each once so 4 games. That gives me 4 results to score along the lines of a tourney, & you have all played each other.
Does that work? Beers kicking in.

[retired from gaming]

Imp,
one main problem with scenarios to keep in mind - there could be a big change of scenario balance depending if you play it blind or not, as Walrus mentioned above.
Anyways, send me an email if you are interested in further discussion, will give you some ideas to think about.
cheers
maciej

[Imp]

Imp,
one main problem with scenarios to keep in mind - there could be a big change of scenario balance depending if you play it blind or not, as Walrus mentioned above.
Anyways, send me an email if you are interested in further discussion, will give you some ideas to think about.
cheers
maciej

Czerpak will hold off on the email till see if get any response then would value your input, not going to do the work if no takers.

Blind point is the whole reason for doing, needs trust to say you have played recently enough to remember. If you wanted to could load it in the editor & look or play as the other side anyway to find out but wheres the fun in that.

If someone wants to post the idea as a new thread go ahead I am willing to run. copy this & tidy up if need.

Suggest trial 8 or 12 people & 4 scenario format so 4 games each. I can work that one out. 8 Gives 4 results per side per game.

Rough rules off the top of my head.

Read the scenerio blurb to check you dont know it once we have decided them, obviosly dont go look any further & can perhaps change then.

I will determine matchups for all games before it starts & send to the players. (sure I know how)

They then contact each other & play them sending me the results.

Do not post any comments that could give info away DARs AARs or even your game results. Going Blind.

Scoring
When results in they can be posted against shadow player or awarded
1st = D
2nd = MD
3rd =MN
4th = DR
Or some such.
Order would be detemined using SP Score with points ratio used to determine draws.
In other words 2 people score MD use the actual point ratio to determine who won. If its close will be a tie my decision.
Could also have overall rankings like a tourney if wanted.

Note unlike a normal tourney think no scores will be posted till it nears completion or is at least part way through. This is due to matchups meaning some players will be playing in a diffrent order & need all results for that scenerio to post.

As meeting tend to be most common game played would really prefer 2 each of defend delay.
This way each player will play 1 game as attacker assaulter defender & delayer. 4 games on 4 diffrent scenerios vs 4 diffrent players should be possible if I sit & work it out.

Any takers or thoughts.

[Walrus]

Imp

In the end, you would be better off actually designing a tourney from scratch.
All I see here is a march toward chaos...though I appreciate what you are trying to do.

Tourneys are tough to keep rolling...players dropping out etc.
You really need to have it squared away, totally bullet=proof, before the sign up.

Get someone to make some maps for you, if that's not your bag.
Then design the scenarios yourself...buy and place the troops and flags, and then hand out the scenario's just like you have been discussing.

You'll get a better result for all your hard work bro...I guarantee that.

Good luck.

Walrus