Aachen west wall anyone want to try it out.

[Von Luck]

Guys for a more detailed description of the scenario open up the game and read what the designer has to say about it most telling and honest from what i read.Yep he's taken a few liberties with one or two units to recreate what was there from sketcky German records but on the whole seems to know who and what was there also he says the map IS accurate taken from official sources so whats what.

[Valor]

Gentlemen,

Once again, please stay on the topic, which is how to improve the scenario and help scenario to do it.

If it will drift into personal discussions the thread will be locked.

Regards

Slawek

[zap]

Von Luck,

I have downloaded this one and have looked over the notes. I have tried the first turns. It is doing what the designer described. To try and evaluate it/ has to be played. Now I'm considering having a go at it. Curiuos to what side you would want?

[Dan Caviness]

Hello to all.

jb: My apologies to you for having to weather any of the above on my behalf.

As you grow old you learn to look for the good in everyone that makes them redeemable, worthy of respect, and humanity.
We love to find those kindred souls.
I'll continue to look for some of you, and I'm glad to have already found them in people like jb.

Point for Point, starting with Alfon's post:

No wonder. The map is not representing the real thing. In that sense the scn is not historical. However a map is something that everybody can do right with some effort.
This should be classified as semi historical scenario. When the map would be right it would be far more interesting.

edited. Sorry for the harsh words earlier.

Alfons:

I thought you and I were square these days?

Here's the deal. The map is constructed (Scale by the way) from two main sources. The first is a beautiful 2008 Phil Schwartzberg period map covering the entire area of the encirclement of Aachen. During the exact time of October 7 -20, 1944.
It's scale and my map's are 1:1 congruity. 30 km east west by 40 km north south.
I can supply you with references on request but since he owns Meridian Mapping and creates military maps for WWII History Magazine he may not really care how you view his work.

The second map source is from Osprey Publishing, "The Siegfried Line 1944-45, Battles on the German Frontier." I find Osprey a very valuable resource and their work in general is very detailed.
Steve Noon draws a lot of their maps.
I'll be sure to let Steve know your thoughts.

I then decided to take a tip from you, and downloaded the present day Google Earth which I attempted to overlay as you do. I eventually printed and scaled it to help with the overall topography.

Nice tip, I appreciate it.

Roadrunner:

Hey man how you doing?
(and thanks)

The deal on the scenario description is I choose [HIS] as per Jason's latest scenario naming methodology but I am OK with renaming it [HISB] if that makes a difference to anyone. The Divisions are definitely in a higher state of readiness as mentioned in the opening dialog, the scenario description, and the read me file.

Appreciate your getting involved man, and thanks for the cover.

Mwest:

Hey man how you doing?
Good to hear from you also my friend.

Here's what I had in mind with the reinforcements coming on all map left (West) and coming in pretty hot and heavy the first 10 turns . I'm trying to simulate the collapse of the German forces in that area of the Netherlands and directly in front of the so called "West Wall" defensive line along the German border.
Actually...thought...you guys might like it...lol...
The Germans that are west of the Scharnhorst and Schill lines come on directly in front of a wave of Allies that are pursuing them towards the wall.

They are a few stragglers in comparison to the Axis forces on map and waiting for the Allied advance. Only added to show the "flow" of the battle as it washes in from the West. They come on the first turn only. The Allies don't come on Turn 1 because I have Axis forces directly in their path when they do enter on Turn 2 and I wanted to give the Axis player (2nd Side) a chance to set his OP fire before the Allied player comes in.

Then when the Allies reach that wall, they find out why they didn't want to.

That is where the Germans make their stand, on the borders of the Fatherland.

It's where you and I would do it.
It's where they did it.
Yes, casualties were severe.
Historically.

My thanks to everyone for their constructive comments and criticism.

Once again thanks jb, valor, mwest, zap, roadrunner, et al.

Dan

The forums are a place to join together and work towards excellence while enjoying what we do. It's what work should be guys, and one of the best things in this old man's life. We share this passion, and that makes it greater than the sum of it's parts.

I'll fight alongside any of you, on the battlefield. That's where my friends and I meet.

[Huib Versloot]

Here's the deal. The map is constructed (Scale by the way) from two main sources. The first is a beautiful 2008 Phil Schwartzberg period map covering the entire area of the encirclement of Aachen. During the exact time of October 7 -20, 1944.
It's scale and my map's are 1:1 congruity. 30 km east west by 40 km north south.
I can supply you with references on request but since he owns Meridian Mapping and creates military maps for WWII History Magazine he may not really care how you view his work.

The second map source is from Osprey Publishing, "The Siegfried Line 1944-45, Battles on the German Frontier." I find Osprey a very valuable resource and their work in general is very detailed.
Steve Noon draws a lot of their maps.
I'll be sure to let Steve know your thoughts.

I then decided to take a tip from you, and downloaded the present day Google Earth which I attempted to overlay as you do. I eventually printed and scaled it to help with the overall topography.

Nice tip, I appreciate it.

Your sources are the problem. Maps in literature often give simplified views, which is good for readers to help understand what was going on without getting distracted by map details, but not for scenario makers who like to build the terrain as it really was. Personally I don't care what Phil Schwartzberg thinks (probably that I am right anyway), I just looked at your game map and I see there is a lot to be desired. Everybody who knows the terrain around Aachen somewhat or who has a topomap can see that. From what I read in earlier posts, and looking at the oob of the scn I thought you would be someone who would go a long way to get it right. I think you will with the map as well.... eventually.

This is what you need.



Let me know if you need a high resolution scan.

This is also useful:

http://greif.uni-greifswald.de/geogreif/...tNumber=52

Huib

[Kool Kat]

Mwest:

Hey man how you doing?
Good to hear from you also my friend.

Here's what I had in mind with the reinforcements coming on all map left (West) and coming in pretty hot and heavy the first 10 turns . I'm trying to simulate the collapse of the German forces in that area of the Netherlands and directly in front of the so called "West Wall" defensive line along the German border.
Actually...thought...you guys might like it...lol...
The Germans that are west of the Scharnhorst and Schill lines come on directly in front of a wave of Allies that are pursuing them towards the wall.

They are a few stragglers in comparison to the Axis forces on map and waiting for the Allied advance. Only added to show the "flow" of the battle as it washes in from the West. They come on the first turn only. The Allies don't come on Turn 1 because I have Axis forces directly in their path when they do enter on Turn 2 and I wanted to give the Axis player (2nd Side) a chance to set his OP fire before the Allied player comes in.

Then when the Allies reach that wall, they find out why they didn't want to.

That is where the Germans make their stand, on the borders of the Fatherland.

It's where you and I would do it.
It's where they did it.
Yes, casualties were severe.
Historically.

My thanks to everyone for their constructive comments and criticism.

Once again thanks jb, valor, mwest, zap, roadrunner, et al.

Dan

Hi Dan:

Thanks for the "designer notes" on the first turns and early reinforcements. :) I had guessed (correctly) concerning the staggered nature of the German reinforcements along the left edge being survivors of a previous battle. :smoke:

Aachen, West Wall - being one of your designs... it naturally follows that a lot of historical research has gone into it.

BTW... I played around with the first two turns and discovered if you leave German units in the Allied reinforcement hexes, when the Allied units arrive on board, they "push" the German units one hex out and then occupy the reinforcement hex! I would NOT want to be the German player and suddenly discover that instead of defending a town, my troops are now sitting out in an open field with adjacent enemy units!

[Dan Caviness]

Mike:

Your correct, that was an error on my part and the latest revision of the files I thought I had moved all German on map western (left edge) at least one hex away from any entry hexes. If you moved them back on top of them...that's your problem...not mine...(:O)
I'll check that and make sure I didn't leave any others by mistake.

When I was hot seat beta testing it I usually ran all the German Turn 1 guys as far east as possible...saving OP fire with those I could...because I knew what was coming next turn!...lol...

The old game engine would actually destroy enemy units in a reinforcement hex...so I guess "moving them over" a hex is a step in the right direction for the JTCS version.
In any case it's a rare occurence.

If the unusual nature of the reinforcements causes issues I can easily delete them and make them on map units. They would serve effectively either way. I first started toying with bringing on rear gaurd troops moving backwards onto the map with my Berlin47 scenario where large elements of the German 6th Army come on map retreating in front of the 3rd and 5th Gaurds Tank Armies. It seemed to work pretty well...a lot of players did some head scratching at first but as the turns progressed they saw the "flow" to it, and I got a couple of nice comments on it.

The thing about this map is the German player can REALLY make the Allied player pay for the territory in front of the wall by using his engineers to blow bridges. You'll see a lot of the streams through the area are actually blue on my map. That is to simulate the flooding of the Wurm and the heavy weather that had ran through the area the two weeks previous. Those blue rivers and determined German engineer units force the Allies to build medium bridges, and the last ones over the Wurm, which is under the gunsites of the Sharnhorst Line north of Aachen.

If I was a stickler for accuracy, I probably would have made this a mud map, but I hate playing games with all that brown on my monitor....too depressing and somber...so soft and green the ground shall be!

Regards,

Dan

[Huib Versloot]

Question: Why are the Germans in places that were Allied on the starting date of this scn? Mausbach, Kornelimünster etc.

[Dan Caviness]

Hello:

I love to design scenarios. I even like to think I have some talents in that direction. You guys are the judge of that. There are some things I do pretty well, and some where I need help.

There are areas I'm so deficient in...like victory levels...objective values...historical accuracy...that if I didn't get help from a lot of smart and creative people (most of whom are reading this post) I'd never have any finished scenarios.

Cartography is not one of those areas.
When it comes to mapmaking, I can hold my head high.
I've spent a lifetime loving to draw, and in love with math, and between the two you end up with maps.

None of us were alive in October 1944 along the German-Netherlands border. We can all use the best tools we have available and attempt to simulate it, but in the end the resolution breaks down. The fractal nature of digitally and traditionally archived source materials is revealed, and we have to be satisfied with our efforts.

I've used Google earth for years. Not for military simulations, rather for researching and scouting backpacking routes. Google's resolution breaks down right about the level where it can ruin your cross country hike however, and that occasional 20 or 30 foot cliff will not be depicted accurately. Those size features can also redefine a battlefield. You take your sources, you do your best to plot them accurately, and in the end you make adjustments to serve gameplay. Every "read me" file I've ever written I admit to adjusting topography as needed in order to further tactical advantage to the intelligent player. That is how you make good fighting maps. It's all about LOS.

All I can do is ask anyone to just download and actually look at one of my scenarios. The maps speak for themselves, and I'm proud of them. You may disagree, and that's OK as well, but I'm hoping you don't.

Regards,

Dan

[Dan Caviness]

Huib:

Your correct, I reset the German West Wall lines for the scenario.
Rather than start the period October 7 with the Scharnhorst and Schill lines already severed in two locations I give the Axis player an intact Siegfried Line. Let them hold or lose it...which was the point of the overall battle in this area.

It is semi-historical Huib, and I know you only like the historical ones, so please accept my apologies...(:O)

I think it makes for a great fight, and with a map this size you can afford to play on a larger stage for the entire region.

Regards,

Dan