Killing tank crew withOUT penetration

FragerZ · 08-14-2008, 03:37 AM,

Okay, so there are two things that happened in the very same turn that I wanted to post about -- I'll start with the most puzzling.

[Image: weirdstuff0.jpg]

So the pictures are quite self-explanatory... I've never seen anything like it really, have the more experienced people? I never realized crew could be killed by a shell breaking apart on their hull - I would have only ever thought it conceivable if the tank had a VERY poor quality of armour, and... maybe the armour plate cracked out of it's welding or something...

Other than that, this tank hasn't taken much punishment this game, only a side penetration by a bazooka (which the skirt stopped), and a frontal partial penetration with no effect about 2 turns before from a sherman 500m away.

This also brings up the question, what lasting effect does internal armour flaking have? As shown in the youtube video in my other... puzzle... the tank has taken 6 partial penetrations, and has taken about 4 'internal armour flaking', yet the hull still doesn't appear weakened (or the newer shells would have penetrated)
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I'm trying to embed a youtube video -- this BETTER freaking work, or I'll just create a link

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Jbo3EAjfALA&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Jbo3EAjfALA&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&color1=0x5d1719&color2=0xcd311b" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbo3EAjfALA
^^Incase the video won't work, copy and paste^^

Lol, every time I watch this video, I yell at my computer, "Dumbass!!! Why the hell did you do that!!!???? WTF were you thinking???"

The text is a bit too small to see, but you can make out what happens -- after about 40 seconds, and 6 direct upper front hull hits latter, the tank commander can't take the pressure, and wants to end his suffering....

I remember reading a post by Old spike or someone, in which he estimated that after about a minute of conflict ending, they unbutton automatically. And I just can't explain this, so I decided to post it.

This really sucks for me, 'cause now both of these tanks are shocked and refuse to respond to my command, and so they're probably going to take a beating next turn.

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P.S. In the video you can see a 37mm firing off. Within the same 60 second turn that these two things happened, the flak gun blows up 2 shermans, and is, (I expect) deathclocking a third... I guess when a 'large HE' shell penetrates, a kill is almost certain.

Soldier · 08-14-2008, 04:05 AM,

That one crew member was killed due to "Internal Armor Flaking."
That is something completely different than a weld comimg appart, etc.
The crew member in question was actually hit by shrapnell, for a lack of better word.. :-)

Soldier

FragerZ · 08-14-2008, 06:50 AM,

shrapnel? but nothing penetrated, and it's not like a chunk of the front hull flew off -- so what could possibly have killed him?

Vartuoosi · 08-14-2008, 06:58 AM,

I think internal armor flaking means that the tanks armor starts to buckle or small pieces of it start flying inside the tank due a hit. According to my experience armor flaking doesn't very often kill a crew member but it can happen.

McEvilly · 08-14-2008, 07:22 AM,

Thats exactly what it is. It is a real killer even today. It can just wound someone bad and they are out of action....

Mikey_FGM · 08-14-2008, 08:25 AM,

An interesting metaphor would be what is called "blunt trauma" in body armor speak...

The kinetic energy of the bullet impacting the Kevlar vest is strong enough to cause internal injuries, even if the bullet itself never penetrates.

Similarly, the kinetic energy of a non-penetrating tank shell might cause metal fragments of the internal armor to flak off at high speed, towards the crew. That's called Spalling, apparently.

SPALLING

So apart from jagged metal flying at you, I would imagine the SOUND of a shell hitting your tank would be apocalyptic, and might burst an eardrum... That's just speculation though..

Soldier · 08-14-2008, 08:27 AM,

Yes, small pieces become detached from the inner side/surface of the armor plating. Those pieces of metal can carry the energy of the impacting shell and move just as fast, etc.
True, a badly wounded crew member is just as bad as a dead one, for the purposes of a half hour battle, etc.. as these scenarios depict.

Extraordinarius · 08-14-2008, 08:30 AM,

Ha, Mikey posted the spalling link while I was writing.

Though not specifically mentioned in the game, it was also not unusual for a non-penetrating round to injure or kill a man in physical contact with the turret armor by transmitted shock, most frequently a loader trying to stay away from the recoiling main gun.

FragerZ · 08-14-2008, 01:54 PM,

Well, I guess I just got unlucky, because I've seen that many many times, but I've never seen it do anything... Did you check out the youtube video of the suicidal crew member??? come on, you had to find that funny.