Kits?

[ppargen]

Could someone explain to me what is meant by kits. I have had several people who wanted to only play combined arms games due to these "kits". While I have noticed that is a recommendation I find it a bit stifling to be limited in such a manner. Perhaps a complaint system to rate the fairness of other players would be more in order.
Is the point system that far off for rating the effectiveness of the units in the game?

[Colonel Talvela]

-"kit" is just the general term used to described what forces you have.

-are you really having difficulty finding players that will agree to unrestricted force selection (aka "kits"). I would suggest posting a message on the main forum listing exactly what setting you want to play with. I cant imagine it taking long to find a willing opponent.

- The point system is pretty good, but there are ways to exploit it. cmbb stugs in '43 is one example - especially if you insist on being germans on an open map.

[Ratzki]

Yes points are by no means a way of making sure a game will be evenly matched. It may take longer to find someone that wants to play a game with very specific parametres, if you are not willing to be flexible somewhat. Drop me an email and we can talk about getting into a game.
ratzki2003 at yahoo dot com

[ppargen]

Oh, I am willing to be flexible, just today I am looking for something specific. That is not really what the thread is about though. I noticed that the first few people I contacted only wanted to play a combined arms game, which is inflexible in itself. I just think there should be a better system of keeping people from "cheating" than just suggesting to everyone that they only play a combined arms game. Surely we can weed out those players instead of limiting everyone.
The points seem to not be far off overall, although as has been pointed out there are specific instances where they are not. Those kind of situations do occur on the battlefield though, you cannot always have the optimal force at the optimal location. The combined arms game does not provide enough points for armor in my opinion, and although I would not mind playing it some I do not want it to be the only game I play.
I have found the armor rules used by people on this site and think that was some excellent work on the part of those who took the time to develop them for everyone.

[Ratzki]

I do not believe that using the "kits" etc. for ways to get a leg up on ones opponent is a rampant problem. My personal feeling is that most players just want to quickly set a game up and play with little preparation for whatever reason. It takes some time to whip up a map, figure out what you want to play, check to see what and where advantages might be gained and remedy them as best you can. The game settings allow for some restrictions to be placed on both sides that some players feel that they can live with, even though things may still remain unbalanced. The club has many players, all with different likes and dislikes with reguards to the game, and finding someone to play a game of your choosing, may take a little while, but I am sure that someone would be found. I was not claiming that you were being inflexible but just making a general statement. I think that posting for a game with the parametres up front has a much greater chance of being successful then not. Thus far, you have just found the wrong players at this point in their lives.

[PoorOldSpike]

POS CMBB QB PARAMETERS

These are popular well-proven params that I and a lot of people have used for years to get balanced games,because in Aug 44 the Russians have got big-hitting tanks (T-34/85's with tungsten) capable of taking on Tigers etc.
Most of the params can also be used for Cmak, but remember, CM is very param-sensitive, so think twice before experimentally tweaking anything or it could dramatically unbalance the whole game, in which case play a mirror with the exact same params so you and your opponent both get to handle the stronger side.




The purchase screen will look like this for both players. Note they can spend all their points on tanks or infantry etc if they like, or a mix of the two, their call. (But note the program places a 350 pts limit on Arty and Air)





A typical German pick to above params, roughly 7 tanks and 7 infantry platoons plus assorted bits and pieces like HMG's/ snipers/ mortars etc, and of course you can splash out on aircraft, arty barrages, flak, Guns, transport, armoured cars etc too, and choose unit quality, that's the beauty of 'Unrestricted' parameters, you're free to buy whatever tools you like to do the job.
You're in command, so COMMAND..;)




Typical Russian 7/7 pick to same params.
Remember, if you want more infantry, just throw out a few tanks and buy another inf company instead and vice-versa..




Typical randomly-generated map to above params. (Or players can agree to import a specially-made map from file)




Close-up of the central village area of the above map..
"We go to gain a small patch of ground.." - Soldier in 'Hamlet'

[ppargen]

I do not believe that using the "kits" etc. for ways to get a leg up on ones opponent is a rampant problem. My personal feeling is that most players just want to quickly set a game up and play with little preparation for whatever reason.

Ah, I see. I personally enjoy setting up the game to a point. This is one reason I do not want to play combined arms in large point games. I find dealing with more than a few companies of infantry to be tedious. This is the one area in which Combat Mission seems to be lacking. It is not easy to manage larger games with many units.

[PoorOldSpike]

I do not believe that using the "kits" etc. for ways to get a leg up on ones opponent is a rampant problem...

Right, it may not be 'rampant', but there are still a minority of players out there who'll do everything to give themselves an edge; it's not exactly cheating but is still not nice to see, I could tell you stories of what they've tried to pull on me..;)
The safeguard is simple enough, never begin a game with anybody without going through the parameters with a magnifying glass and a team of lawyers beforehand to make sure you like and understand them, because once you begin a game it's too late then as you'll have zilch excuse for being hung out to dry..[/i]

[Colonel Talvela]

I can speak for me and the small group of CM friends that I am most familiar with - trying & finding clever "kit combinations" that give you an advantage is one of the best parts of the game.

Right, it may not be 'rampant', but there are still a minority of players out there who'll do everything to give themselves an edge; it's not exactly cheating but is still not nice to see, I could tell you stories of what they've tried to pull on me..;)

on the other hand, some people probably consider it doing 'everything to give themselves an edge' to only play one type of game over and over and over and over and over and over ....

Personally, I consider the "7 platoons of inf and 7 tanks" much more gamey when considered in a competitive way.

Of course that is the great thing about CM and the blitz - lots of variety and plenty of ways to challenge yourself in a way that is important to you. So even Mark "the Coil" Sweeney, the demon blitzer, can proudly call himself a ladder leader

[PoorOldSpike]

I can speak for me and the small group of CM friends that I am most familiar with - trying & finding clever "kit combinations" that give you an advantage is one of the best parts of the game.

Yes it might be alright between experienced players, but if an experienced player does it to a noob it stinks..
That's why whenever I play anybody, expd or noob, I always lay out everything on the table for him to see first.
I did that with Trident and have just lost 20 out of 25 games even though I set the params and created the map myself!
Yup, people know that when they play old POS they'll get a square deal right down the line with no dirty tricks played on them even though it means i'll take hard knocks myself -

"So well thy words become thee as thy wounds;
They smack of honour both. Go get him surgeons" -Macbeth